WW 3 ..is this the reality?

ronib

MOnica on balance, US veteran analysts are presenting a very incisive view of a potentially dangerous world scenario. Russia China axis is not something we want.
I am very disheartened by the Gransnet intelligence analysts on this forum but hey everyone is entitled to their opinion.

In my post of 1.23 I listed facts, not opinions. No one can argue with facts simply because they are facts.

Katie59

So Gransnet majority says Russia should be driven out of Ukraine whatever the cost however long it takes. With the quantity of arms that are being supplied that is not going to happen, much much more is needed.

Yes indeed, more is needed.

Greyduster

Maddyone I am not an appeaser. Show me in any of my posts where I said appeasement would work. I said I didn’t believe that there was no-one inside Russia who thought that getting rid of Putin internally before their country became an all out pariah state with no place in the world was not a good idea! As for the US intelligence veterans, yes, they would fall over themselves to get rid of NATO because it would save the US a shed load of money (us too probably), but the NATO alliance is Europe’s shield and without it, Putin really would have free rein to do what Hitler did in 1940.

I must have misunderstood your post Greyduster and I apologise if I did, but glad to hear that you’re not an appeaser. Obviously no one in Russia can get rid of Putin which is why he is so very dangerous. NATO is indeed Europe’s shield and I think it fair to say that without it Putin would have few qualms about advancing further into Europe. Sadly many members of NATO have not been putting their allocated amount of money into the NATO budget during the last few years, as I understand it. Relying heavily on the US is probably not a good idea, we in Europe must show ourselves to be prepared also. Putin must believe that we refuse to accept his aggression.

Monica your post at 11.42. Well said, very true.

maddyone

ronib

MOnica on balance, US veteran analysts are presenting a very incisive view of a potentially dangerous world scenario. Russia China axis is not something we want.
I am very disheartened by the Gransnet intelligence analysts on this forum but hey everyone is entitled to their opinion.

In my post of 1.23 I listed facts, not opinions. No one can argue with facts simply because they are facts.

They could if they are simply "your" facts and not actual facts. Perhaps you would like to list these facts so we can decide?

Callistemon21

I think we are being fed Russian propaganda on here.

By whom and on what purpose, please?

Yes, there was a clear agreement that Ukraine would remain neutral. That cannot be denied.

The reason neither I nor Normandy girl have not put forwards possible solutions, is because there are none. CND and many ot us have been trying for decades to make people understand that MAD would only work for a short while- and that as proliferation of nuclear arms, especially smaller so-called tactical and more precise weapons, the danger would become greater. Very few listened and we now face the fact that MAD would only work until one or more mad men got involved. Even if this conflict is resolved without the use of nuclear weapons- the threat will remain, if not Putin, some other mad man. There is not way back, and no solution.

Hence the reason for real anxiety, not as an illness that can be solved by counselling or pills, but as a response to above.

I will withdraw from this conversation, because it is clear some will distort and twist, possibly because accepting that there is no solution, is impossible to bear. I get that.

DaisyAnne I already listed the facts in my post of 01.23. Why do I need to do it again?
But since you need it twice, here are the facts for you;

1) Annexation of Crimea by Putin
2) Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko, using polonium delivered by a cup of tea in a London hotel by Russian agents
3) Attempted poisoning of the Skripals using novichov in Salisbury by Russian agents
4) One woman died and four people seriously injured by novochov in Salisbury following the attempted murder of the Skripals by Russian agents
5) The shooting down of flight MH17 over Ukraine murdering 298 people by a Russian surface to air missile which was moved into position the morning it happened

What exactly are you disputing? The above are undisputed facts. They describe Russian aggression and incursions into the sovereign land of other countries, in two cases incursions into Britain to commit illegal and aggressive acts.

Incidentally DaisyAnne these facts are not my facts, they are the facts. Why are you aggressively questioning me about undisputed facts?

Thankyou Maddyone. Accepted. You’re right about the NATO budget though. Out of twenty nine nations, only eight are meeting their financial obligations to spend 2% of GDP on defence. Greece spends more per capita than anyone else. Germany, for all it has always had a major role in strategic planning and policy, is way down the list, and I think this sticks in the US’s craw. We have consistently met our spending targets and are currently third largest contributor. US spend is stratospheric.

Greyduster Greece feels under constant threat , whether real or imagined, from Turkey. So unsurprisingly it will want the security of NATO.

The fact that both Greece and Turkey are members of NATO should keep them from getting in each other’s hair then!😁

So Greyduster it’s a pity Russia has been excluded from the NATO alliance therefore?

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202302/medium-800870-23f55e29-f9c9-4591-a011-baa29b1e8e6f.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202302/medium-464416-2ef175cf-a7bf-4427-bfb9-285280a0c839.png

Here is a brief explanation of Russia’s relationship with NATO

Can you post a link to that article, GG13. I'm finding it difficult to read. It's too small when I click on it and enlarging it just makes the print go paler and fuzzy.

If you can't post a link I'll try it on my mini Ipad. It might enlarge better.

www.nato.int/factsheets
I googled NATO - Russia relations and one of the links was the NATO page.

Thanks

www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2022/2/pdf/220214-factsheet_NATO-Russia_Relations_e.pdf

Thank you for your detailed link MaizieD

It does not sound like there is much hope for a quick peaceful end in Ukraine

maddyone

Incidentally DaisyAnne these facts are not my facts, they are the facts. Why are you aggressively questioning me about undisputed facts?

Thank you for listing them maddyone.

That’s okay DaisyAnne.
Did you, or anyone else, watch Putin versus the West on BBC2 last night. It outlines the situation with Putin from the 2014 annexation on Crimea, so doesn’t include anything from before that time such as the poisoning of Litvinenko who was targeted in 2006. Surprisingly neither was the shooting down of MH17 mentioned and that happened in 2014 too. So there were omissions but nonetheless it outlined efforts by the west to work with Putin, but it all fell on stony ground sadly, and Putin waged war on Ukraine last year.

Sadly all the efforts of Gorbachev and other Presidents of the Federation of Russia were wasted once Putin came to power.

On a more positive side, if you look at it this way, it is reported that Putin is more and more dependent on China on the international stage and China has made it clear that Russia will lose its support if it uses nuclear weapons.

Grantanow

No. We are much further from WW3 than we were in 1962 at the height of the Cuban missile crisis when most of the Left, CND, etc., swallowed Soviet assurances there were no missiles only to be embarrassed after a few weeks by the aerial photographs showing them in place. Well handled by JFK and Robert McNamara and a careful back down by Kruschev. I doubt any jets will be sent to Ukraine by the UK unless they are tokens. Long training and limited supplies!

Actually the deal between Khrushchev and Kennedy was.

We will remove our missiles from Cuba if you remove yours from Turkey.

I understand that Norway is the latest nation to offer tanks to Ukraine.