Sunak has used a lot of Political Credit on sorting out the Northern Ireland Protocol deal ...

Yes

After Sunak’s latest comments (quoted below), I am adopting the DUP position that Northern Ireland should not be treated differently to the rest of the UK*.

“Northern Ireland is in the unbelievably special position - unique position in the entire world - in having privileged access not just to the UK market… but also the EU single market”

Nobody else has that. No one. Only you guys, only here”

*yes, I know it’s actually treated differently in many ways, my comment is a political rhetorical flourish.

fancythat

For me, I would have paid a heavy price to leave the EU.
The price[if there even is one for some people] has been light.
I imagine all points about that have been discussed many times before on gransnet.
We are not fully out even now.

The price[if there even is one for some people] has been light.

Do you know, I'm not sure you are in a position to say that. The reason? Because you have subjectively decided that the consequences of the biggest change to our constitutional and economic way of life since the second world war is of little importance. I'm fairly sure that a lot of businesses (both small - including my own - and large) would disagree with you. And that of course is not counting the personal problems created for quite a few people.

What heavy price would you have been prepared to pay? Bearing in mind that the 'reckoning' may not yet be in. I am genuinely interested because I've heard your comment frequently.

I'm not intending to insult you for your belief / view - but I would really like to understand what benefits of Brexit you have enjoyed - and I mean tangible benefits - benefits that have materially or noticeably improved the quality of your life? Is there anything that you can now do that you couldn't do prior to Brexit?

Finally, do you think it's possible that some of the problems we've experienced, as a nation, could be down to this and previous governments' short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and underinvestment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure?

... because back in 2013 - these are the problems that Boris Johnson himself identified, in those exact words.

Cleverly had the audacity to say on Sky News that Keir Starmer didn’t understand how negotiations work
. How long has it taken this government to sort out a mess of its own making. And are now trying to pretend that an exercise in damage limitation is a great victory!

Dickens

fancythat

For me, I would have paid a heavy price to leave the EU.
The price[if there even is one for some people] has been light.
I imagine all points about that have been discussed many times before on gransnet.
We are not fully out even now.

The price[if there even is one for some people] has been light.

Do you know, I'm not sure you are in a position to say that. The reason? Because you have subjectively decided that the consequences of the biggest change to our constitutional and economic way of life since the second world war is of little importance. I'm fairly sure that a lot of businesses (both small - including my own - and large) would disagree with you. And that of course is not counting the personal problems created for quite a few people.

What heavy price would you have been prepared to pay? Bearing in mind that the 'reckoning' may not yet be in. I am genuinely interested because I've heard your comment frequently.

I'm not intending to insult you for your belief / view - but I would really like to understand what benefits of Brexit you have enjoyed - and I mean tangible benefits - benefits that have materially or noticeably improved the quality of your life? Is there anything that you can now do that you couldn't do prior to Brexit?

Finally, do you think it's possible that some of the problems we've experienced, as a nation, could be down to this and previous governments' short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and underinvestment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure?

... because back in 2013 - these are the problems that Boris Johnson himself identified, in those exact words.

The price per household is here.
www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-11745465/Brexit-cost-1-000-household-lost-productivity-says-BoEs-Haskel.html
I’m looking forward to receiving my £1000 annual allocation from fancythat, as it’s only fair that those who voted for this pay those who never did.

Sunak is now telling us that "Northern Ireland is in the unbelievably special position - unique position in the entire world - in having privileged access not just to the UK market… but also the EU single market. Nobody else has that. No one. Only you guys, only here”

This is rich coming from brexiter Rishi!

Before 2016 the whole of the UK was in an ubelievably special position, not only with access to the EU, but out of Schengen, with a rebate and allowed to keep the £.

If we are ever allowed to rejoin (it's a big if because of the hassle and expense we've inflicted on the other 27 members countries) we will never again enjoy such a privileged position.

Siope

After Sunak’s latest comments (quoted below), I am adopting the DUP position that Northern Ireland should not be treated differently to the rest of the UK*.

“Northern Ireland is in the unbelievably special position - unique position in the entire world - in having privileged access not just to the UK market… but also the EU single market”

Nobody else has that. No one. Only you guys, only here”

*yes, I know it’s actually treated differently in many ways, my comment is a political rhetorical flourish.

The part the DUP really hate is that the more cross border activity there is brings a united Ireland closer, with Irish citizens free to live and work in the UK it’s only the Unionists standing in the way

Whitewavemark2

But ug it is the working classes that are paying the price for more expensive food, less opportunity, less educational opportunity, poorer health service etc.

Here in the middle class south (which voted remain) whilst it undoubtedly are affected, are no so impacted by this state of affairs.

I don't get the impression that UG is quite as "working class" (whatever that may mean in her head) as she would like to be thought, Whitewave. In fact, I would go as far as to say, from what I remember her saying about herself, that she isn't working class at all.

If only we referred to ourselves by our economic situation, then the perspective would be more honest and we could clearly see the problems. So what would Urmstongran be in real-world analysis? The descriptions in this article look useful. Perhaps she could tell us where she fits, using this analysis.

DaisyAnne

Whitewavemark2

But ug it is the working classes that are paying the price for more expensive food, less opportunity, less educational opportunity, poorer health service etc.

Here in the middle class south (which voted remain) whilst it undoubtedly are affected, are no so impacted by this state of affairs.

I don't get the impression that UG is quite as "working class" (whatever that may mean in her head) as she would like to be thought, Whitewave. In fact, I would go as far as to say, from what I remember her saying about herself, that she isn't working class at all.

If only we referred to ourselves by our economic situation, then the perspective would be more honest and we could clearly see the problems. So what would Urmstongran be in real-world analysis? The descriptions in this article look useful. Perhaps she could tell us where she fits, using this analysis.

That is an American article about Americans, so hardly relevant to a U.K. citizen.

Whenever Urmstongran posts they receive answers verging on bullying.

I am sure they know their economic situation and it has nothing to do with other GN posters.

The income figures are not are not relevant to the classification. In what why would/should the descriptions be deferent to apply to any other rich nation?

I don't think someone who for sometime had a second home, (I will apologise if my memory is letting me down here), can be considered as "poor", "working poor" or even "working class".

If you cannot see where you fit into society, how on earth can you judge how it should work for all?

The above was in reply to Granny Gravy.

Just to ensure my Britishness, Granny Gravy, this was the description of Working Class that the Great British Class Survey revealed in 2011.

Traditional working class
The traditional working class, about 14 percent of British society, shows relatively poor economic capital, but some housing assets, few social contacts, and low highbrow and emerging cultural capital. Typical occupations include electrical and electronics technicians; care workers; cleaners; van drivers; electricians; residential, day, and domiciliary care.

The traditional working class with a mean household income of only £13,000. However, many own their homes, with an average value in 2011 of £127,000, but only modest savings. Social contacts are low and the status of contacts are moderate. Scores on highbrow cultural capital are moderate, and scores on emerging cultural capital are particularly low. The traditional working class scores low on nearly every measure of capital. Few are graduates, many filling traditional working-class occupations such as lorry drivers, cleaners, electrician and menial white collar occupations. Many are women. Those who seek higher education tend to seek it in institutions which recruit mature or part-time students such as Open University. Many live in old industrial areas of England outside South East England and in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They often represent an older generation and earlier historical period.

New Affluent Workers are also defined as working class in that survey, here’s the Wikipedia link.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey

I don’t think it’s on to discuss other posters’ status in this way on Gransnet though, people’s finances and status are their business not ours.

I think, if posters wave it as a status flag, we have every right to reply. Do you really think I would have said anything if UG had not mentioned that this was how she saw herself?

Casdon

New Affluent Workers are also defined as working class in that survey, here’s the Wikipedia link.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey

I don’t think it’s on to discuss other posters’ status in this way on Gransnet though, people’s finances and status are their business not ours.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Urmstongran

Less educational opportunity? Are you ‘avin a larf?
Don’t you read that working class white boys are the most disadvantaged group? We working classes still strive but with less aspiration. It is what is is and we get by.

And as for poorer health services? They’re dire for many at present. But the more well off can always choose to go private. We manage, as best as. Always have. Nowt much different whether in EU or not - so for a nice big fat change, guess what? Given a vote, We chose NOT.

I don't often bother to read Ug's posts, but the 'working class' exchange made me have a look.

The sentiment expressed here seems to be that the w/c vote for Brexit was a fine opportunity for the working class to get their revenge on people who appeared to be more advantaged than them. "We don't get any apparent benefit from the EU so we'll stop everyone else getting any, two fingers to the middle classes.."

How very unpleasant.

Indeed.

Who is the 'we manage, as best as'?

All those who can't afford to go private- be it for health or education. What does 'best as' mean for those people.

As for the NHS- how can you say that leaving the EU has not contributed hugely to shortages of staff at all levels, including care. And the shortages of medicines and other treatments? Which are likely to get worse, as there is a world shortage. NOT being part of a large Single Market, leaves the UK out. Especially with all the red tape, and low currency.

How very selfish indeed.

I read that Johnson has put it out that he is busy reading the new framework t9 see if he can support it.

I very much doubt it

What he is most certainly doing is ringing around to see if he has any support in contesting it.

Sunak should threaten to go to the Country if he has much more trouble from the Tory Right Wing and the DUP. This would be a sobering thought for them all given the state of the polls. Johnson would lose his seat, among many others.

Do I correctly understand that despite owning a place in Spain Urms voted Leave? I don’t understand - but then I was and am a Remainer. Neighbours of ours also own a property in Spain, where they can no longer spend so much time - they didn’t vote Leave.

Lots of people who owned places in Spain voted Leave, GSM. They didn't think it would make any difference to them.

I think the 'Spain really needs the British tourists' belief had much the same potency as 'German car makers will make sure the British get a good deal'

Probably so. Perhaps they were a little short sighted, or wanting to have their cake and eat it.

Germanshepherdsmum

Probably so. Perhaps they were a little short sighted, or wanting to have their cake and eat it.

They were assured by all the Leave campaigns that nothing would change if we left the EU.

Whitewavemark2

I read that Johnson has put it out that he is busy reading the new framework t9 see if he can support it.

I very much doubt it

What he is most certainly doing is ringing around to see if he has any support in contesting it.

What he is most certainly doing is ringing around to see if he has any support in contesting it.

Without a doubt!

According to The Telegraph...

Just as Rishi Sunak was signing off on the final small print in the protracted negotiations over the Brexit deal for Northern Ireland, he put a call through to Boris Johnson.

A Number 10 source confirmed that the call – in the 24 hours before Monday’s announcement – was “to talk through the negotiations”.

A Tory MP ally was more direct, saying that Mr Sunak told Mr Johnson to “pipe down”.

... and, further...

For days, Westminster has been readying itself for a big intervention from Mr Johnson over the new deal. Now that the Windsor Framework is published, the time for waiting is over.

All eyes are definitely on Mr Johnson now, and what he does next. As the Cabinet minister added: “Let's see if Boris has got any balls."

I think it will depend on how much support he can drum up. He does, after all - as a Tory MP said - see himself as 'Mr Brexit'. Noting that there was a personal element to this. You don't say !

Some of us thought for ourselves didn’t we Maizie?