Sunak has used a lot of Political Credit on sorting out the Northern Ireland Protocol deal ...

and don't mention the 'r' word.

Joseanne, about the house in France or elsewhere they could not afford in UK- I am not talking hereabout those who bought Châteaux or Mansions- but very modest homes, that took lots of effort and sacrifices to do up- in preparation for retirement.

And with the right attitude too, making sure to learn the language before the big move, and learning about the culture, history, etc.

MaizieD

Katie59

“So how does that explain the majority of over 65s voting Leave?”

It doesn’t, it’s probably due to more conservative attitudes as we get older, but that obviously apply to the majority of GN users.

I still don't understand. What does 'more conservative attitudes as we get older' have to do with voting to leave the EU?

'Conservative' is usually about maintaining the status quo, not overturning it.

Like Maizie, I disagree that it was a more conservative attitude - If it was to what aspect of life was it "more conservative"? Presumably, you mean the 'strangers in our midst'. Although the Leave team played on this, I think there was much more going on.

We also know that the people who voted leave, grouped as "less educated". This can be interpreted in many ways. I would ask if it could be that this generation was, under government rules, offered "less" education. I would note that they were told there were jobs for life and, therefore, they would not need to extend their education.

I would then ask if this generation realised the privilege of education they had, in large numbers, been denied when they found the jobs were not for life and that education mattered to the possibilities in their lives as much as it does in others lives.

I can totally understand why this would make a large tranche of the population very anti any group that they believe applies rules to their lives.

varian

I know that although most stupid people voted Leave, not all Leave voters were stupid.

Seven years on from the fraudulent referendum, ,most of the more intelligent Leave voters have admitted that they were misled.

I beg your pardon!! That is very nasty to accuse someone of being stupid just because they vote differently to you.

I live in East Midlands and know so many people who voted Leave including majority of my former colleagues. They are all middle class people with houses in the country. Majority of their children went to universities and have middle class professional jobs.

The people you mention who voted Leave and are less educated, I believe they are the Red Wall Labour supporters.

They never voted Tory, but voted Tory for the first time because they wanted Brexit. So, their votes are tactical strategic votes and they managed to out manoeuvre the highly educated Remain politicians in parliament who tried to stop the Brexit process.

No let's NOT get over Johnson, ENO - he will be back if he has the chance! As for this hopeful deal, the Tories are only trying to clear up their own mess. There are good points to Sunak, but my fear is that the electorate will be seduced into voting the Conservatives back in, which would be a disaster

SoreRB '' Majority of their children went to universities and have middle class professional jobs.

The people you mention who voted Leave and are less educated, I believe they are the Red Wall Labour supporters''

Well how rude is that!!!

I wonder how those children who went to Uni and have middle class professional jobs voted!?!

On the contrary, I think Sunak has improved his stock of political capital by negotiating changes to the NI protocol and by demonstrating that it is possible to have a constructive relationship with the EU, a quite distinct approach from the Johnson-Frost -ERG approach which cast the EU as blameworthy and recalcitrant. I doubt Sunak has done enough to win the next GE but if I were a Tory MP I might be a little more optimistic about retaining my seat.

Grantanow

On the contrary, I think Sunak has improved his stock of political capital by negotiating changes to the NI protocol and by demonstrating that it is possible to have a constructive relationship with the EU, a quite distinct approach from the Johnson-Frost -ERG approach which cast the EU as blameworthy and recalcitrant. I doubt Sunak has done enough to win the next GE but if I were a Tory MP I might be a little more optimistic about retaining my seat.

I agree he has gained some additional political capital.

He now has to negotiate how best to instruct (or not) his party if Johnson is found guilty.

He also needs his very far-right leanings to stay quiet.

The Whatsapp comment that dubbed "eat out to help out" as “eat out to help the virus get about” will not help but could be buried under the Johnson debacle.

He doesn't have much time and still has enemies within his party in parliament. They could choose to undermine him - although they may see the sense in not doing so.

I feel he will need to be very lucky to have a chance of forming the next government. However, stranger things have happened (many over the last 13 years).

SporeRB

varian

I know that although most stupid people voted Leave, not all Leave voters were stupid.

Seven years on from the fraudulent referendum, ,most of the more intelligent Leave voters have admitted that they were misled.

I beg your pardon!! That is very nasty to accuse someone of being stupid just because they vote differently to you.

I live in East Midlands and know so many people who voted Leave including majority of my former colleagues. They are all middle class people with houses in the country. Majority of their children went to universities and have middle class professional jobs.

The people you mention who voted Leave and are less educated, I believe they are the Red Wall Labour supporters.

They never voted Tory, but voted Tory for the first time because they wanted Brexit. So, their votes are tactical strategic votes and they managed to out manoeuvre the highly educated Remain politicians in parliament who tried to stop the Brexit process.

We were leave voters too, spurred on by the waste that my husband saw when he worked in Brussels and by the requirement that the UK accept free movement within the EU. Also by the UK government allowing some of our industries to die whilst other EU governments found ways round the rules. We've seen the result in our steel industry in particular.
Many of our friends, mostly university graduates or professionally trained, felt the same.
Despite the problems, mostly due to the lack of competent negotiation by May and Johnson, we still feel the same.

Despite the problems, mostly due to the lack of competent negotiation by May and Johnson, we still feel the same.

So what do you think we have gained?

Interesting about your university graduates. My DD, a uni academic, was at a large academic conference on the day the referendum results were declared. She says that there were a lot of very long faces and shocked and upset people. Brexit has blocked access for UK researchers to a great many European research projects.

If he gets this deal through + re entry to the Horizon project and kicks Boris and the ERG into the long grass, then he may have got my vote back as my MP.

The deal that seems to have been agreed is close to what is actually happening at present, there are no actual Red and Green lanes but if your destination is NI you will be waved through.
Commercial goods are still liable to be checked even when 2 lanes are in operation. The EU are still retaining the final veto, they are at least giving the new system a chance to operate properly.

Will it pass parliament, maybe, if not Red and Green lanes will probably happen anyway, getting the Unions back into Stormont is another matter, wether it passes parliament or not.

leeds22

If he gets this deal through + re entry to the Horizon project and kicks Boris and the ERG into the long grass, then he may have got my vote back as my MP.

I have seen that Sunak doesn't intend that the UK rejoins the Horizon project.

That's all. I have no idea what his rationale might be.

MaizieD

^Despite the problems, mostly due to the lack of competent negotiation by May and Johnson, we still feel the same.^

So what do you think we have gained?

Interesting about your university graduates. My DD, a uni academic, was at a large academic conference on the day the referendum results were declared. She says that there were a lot of very long faces and shocked and upset people. Brexit has blocked access for UK researchers to a great many European research projects.

I think one major advantage will be that UK public projects will not have to be offered up to all EU counties for tender. For example, under the old rules we were having trains built abroad because EU companies (some it is suggested subsidised though that is technically against EU rules) came in with lower prices. The effect of this sort of loss of orders is destroying some industries and they can often not be rebuilt.
I do appreciate that academics (of which I was one) often have a different outlook as many of them have not been directly involved with manufacturing industries. I agree that their funding option have, in some cases, been reduced. However direct funding from companies for research is always an option for projects with a more practical bent.
I had expected that most people working in the financial markets would have voted Remain but have been surprised that most of those that I know did not, for various reasons. The ones who did vote Remain usually had properties in Europe!

I think one major advantage will be that UK public projects will not have to be offered up to all EU counties for tender.

It worked the other way, too. Perhaps it says something about our industries if they failed to tender successfully for work in Europe...

It doesn't auger well for the future quality of British products if we have to resort to protectionism in order for them to obtain work...

“For example, under the old rules we were having trains built abroad because EU companies (some it is suggested subsidised though that is technically against EU rules) came in with lower prices. The effect of this sort of loss of orders is destroying some industries and they can often not be rebuilt.”

Do we have any companies building railway locomotives these days, failure of successive governments seem to have abandoned them decades ago.

Katie59

“For example, under the old rules we were having trains built abroad because EU companies (some it is suggested subsidised though that is technically against EU rules) came in with lower prices. The effect of this sort of loss of orders is destroying some industries and they can often not be rebuilt.”

Do we have any companies building railway locomotives these days, failure of successive governments seem to have abandoned them decades ago.

We do indeed Alsthom a French owned company built a lot of trains at Derby, several others build narrow gauge locomotives.

I just thought some of you might like to see this. And didn't want to start a new thread.
Just one small example of how we in NI are treated differently.
Bodum wouldn't send my spare part. I asked why.
Answer

We do not currently accept orders for delivery to Northern Ireland. We will however be putting in place that service although it will be necessary for additional freight costs to be made to the customer.

So they sold me the cafetiere but won't send replacement parts. When they do, it will cost more.