So letting in a bit of reality - does this mean it is the beginning of the end of Brexit

As I said, just because someone is poisoning you slowly and imperceptibly over time, doesn't mean you are not being murdered.

I'm an avid Remainer but generally try to be objective about Brexit and have to admit that the impact of Brexit on me has not been marked.

However the effect on the UK economy has been damaging made worse by Covid and the war in Ukraine. There are as I see it no positives to Brexit. The downsides have been evidenced by the departure of Honda, adverse effects to fishing and farming, loss status to the city of London, harder co-operation in the academic and scientific communities. The slow rundown of manufacturing because we could not compete or be bothered to improve to compete.

We must not forget how the EU came about. It derived from the Iron, Coal and Steel federation after WW2 to promote trade within Europe. The result has been over 70 years of relative peace in Europe including the lessening of tensions in Ireland. The most obvious effect of Brexit has been to damge the Good Friday Agreement, the Windsor protocol partly fixed this and also showed the public what the country lost through Brexit.

The UK's problems are a legacy of empire, a divided society and a reluctance to learn best practices from other countries.

It meant my sister couldn't move to Spain, my son couldn't study in Germany

Why not?
Has the UK banned people from leaving the country?
What did people do before we joined the EU ? ( as we knew it at time of referendum )
Honestly, you talk like there was no life before 1992

Another friend made 60 staff in the UK redundant and moved her business to Holland

People have always been made redundant. It’s nothing new. My husband was made redundant in 1989 & again in 1998.

Somebody else I know finds it more difficult (sometimes impossible) to import seeds and plants

And that’s a reason for staying in the EU?
Jesus Christ.

It's more difficult/expensive to buy books from the EU and it's more hassle to post anything to an EU country

Here’s an idea. Buy books in this country.

I couldn’t read anymore.
These reasons are nothing to do with the average person & all to do with privilege.

This board cheers on the people of Scotland for wanting independence, but hates anyone who voted for Brexit.

You talk nonsense.

Kandinsky

This board cheers on the people of Scotland for wanting independence, but hates anyone who voted for Brexit.

You talk nonsense.

Er - or is it you talking nonsense?
You can’t dismiss views of others just because you don’t agree with them. You can put forward your alternative view, but this isn’t an ‘You’re wrong and I’m right’ situation is it?

fb.watch/j4fGoWjbOU/

Kandinsky- the reality.

Before joining the EU- anyone wanting to go and work in the EU, or vice-versa- had to have a job before they came, and the employer had to apply for your work permit. You could not go for 3 months and look for work. You then had no right to remain and look for another job if made redundant, as you work permit was tied to that particular job. So you would have had to leave the country and find another employer who would apply all over again for a new work permit.

I know- I've been there, and done that! Then if you met someone and wanted to live with that person, and something happened that made you unable to work, like a car accident, then you would have had to leave. I know, I've done that. And then you had to get married- and your OH would have to prove that he could support you- and even though you had been disabled by that accident, you could not claim any benefits, because you were foreign. I know! Yes, I do.

Then you had to take your driving licence all over again- as it was no longer valid after 6 months. No exchanges in those days. And if you wanted to take British nationality, you had to prove you were fluent in the language, and had to swear an Oath of allegiance to Queen and her Heirs. I know.

Nonsense, did you say, Kandinsky.

Kandinsky

This board cheers on the people of Scotland for wanting independence, but hates anyone who voted for Brexit.

You talk nonsense.

False equivalence there, Kandinsky. Especially as Scotland wants to rejoin the institution they were removed from against their will.

Scotland wants to regain its sovereignty. The UK has always been sovereign, being in the EU made no difference to that. It had the right to both effectively propose and to veto prospective EU law. Scotland doesn't have any such power over UK law.

Before joining the EU- anyone wanting to go and work in the EU, or vice-versa- had to have a job before they came, and the employer had to apply for your work permit
You could not go for 3 months and look for work. You then had no right to remain and look for another job if made redundant, as you work permit was tied to that particular job
So you would have had to leave the country and find another employer who would apply all over again for a new work permit

Good! Sounds sensible to me.

Yes, I was expecting that reply. What is wrong with coming and being able to look for work for 3 months, paying your own way until you got a job? Businesses in the UK are desperate for such people- restaurants, hotels, agriculture, and on and on.

So talking about privilege. Before then, if you wanted to learn English and come to the UK, as I did, you had basically 4 choices. Coming as an Au Pair, on a limited short contract, working for a pittance- and in those days, only for girls. Or come to a language school- this only available for the very privileged, those who had parents with lots of money. Or you happened to have very high qualifications and experience, and be head hunted- something most young people keen to travel and learn a language did not have. Or you just happened to be privileged enough, as I was, to know the right people in a high position, who would sponsor you and apply for your work permit. Very very rare indeed. I was very lucky, and very privileged. Few people happened to know the top echelons of a massive cosmetics and pharma company.

My DH worked for many years in IT systems design and consultancy servcs across Europe and the rest of the world. He experienced directly how much easier it became to gain contracts and work in EU countries after the introduction of the single market. This was money coming into the UK economy. Now those barriers to trade are back in place and service industries have declined.
As migrants to France Brexit has affected us negatively in many ways, but that will mean nothing to Brexit supporters.
You would think that the decline of a significant aspect of the UK economy might just mean something though.

As Members as the EU, there was another option, for so many. Erasmus- or the DaVinci programme, or opportinities in Italy with Dante Alighieri, and other such EU programmes- to which we no longer have access. Or many many EU research groups at the highest levels on scientific and medical research- all of which now exclude UK students. Such privilege!

Fleurpepper

Yes, I was expecting that reply. What is wrong with coming and being able to look for work for 3 months, paying your own way until you got a job? Businesses in the UK are desperate for such people- restaurants, hotels, agriculture, and on and on.

So talking about privilege. Before then, if you wanted to learn English and come to the UK, as I did, you had basically 4 choices. Coming as an Au Pair, on a limited short contract, working for a pittance- and in those days, only for girls. Or come to a language school- this only available for the very privileged, those who had parents with lots of money. Or you happened to have very high qualifications and experience, and be head hunted- something most young people keen to travel and learn a language did not have. Or you just happened to be privileged enough, as I was, to know the right people in a high position, who would sponsor you and apply for your work permit. Very very rare indeed. I was very lucky, and very privileged. Few people happened to know the top echelons of a massive cosmetics and pharma company.

And vice-versa of course.

My DH worked for many years in IT systems design and consultancy servcs across Europe and the rest of the world

This is my point.

That’s not your ‘average man in the street’ job is it.
Talk to bus drivers, shop workers, plumbers, carpenters, people in low skilled jobs.
I doubt they’ll be worried about getting plants & seeds from Europe.
They’ll be glad they’ve got more chance of a job now we’ve ended freedom of movement.

Kandinsky

*My DH worked for many years in IT systems design and consultancy servcs across Europe and the rest of the world*

This is my point.

That’s not your ‘average man in the street’ job is it.
Talk to bus drivers, shop workers, plumbers, carpenters, people in low skilled jobs.
I doubt they’ll be worried about getting plants & seeds from Europe.
They’ll be glad they’ve got more chance of a job now we’ve ended freedom of movement.

If you were right, wouldn’t they still be supporting the Tories?

No it isn't an average job Kandinsky, but it is the kind of job that brings money into the economy from outside so that a country can employ bus drivers, refuse collectors and other people who do not directly bring in revenue. You probably regard people like my DH as having been hugely privileged (though spending many weeks of every year away from home with long days of travelling is not actually that much fun).
Does a country getting poorer help those who are already lower-paid?

I meant, how rude can you be

''Talk to plumbers, carpenters, people in low skilled jobs.''

in the EU to become a plumber or a carpenter, and so many other jobs which you call 'low skill' - young people have to do a 4 year apprenticeship, with 1 or 2 days a week in tech college.

We do desperately need agricultural workers, bar tenders, hotel staff who speak several languages, experienced carers and skilled Chefs, nurses, doctors, and so many more.

Because either the low skilled un-employed in the UK can't be bothered, or do not have the skills and qualifications.

Highly skilled and experience IT managers and innovators are working in the EU now- as they have access to much wider markets and research programmes, etc, much better conditions and salaries.

Where I live we now have a reduced bus service because the company lost several drivers from the EU. They left the UK. People now use their cars instead of the bus and those who don't own a car are finding getting around very difficult. They are ordinary people; those who Kandinsky says have not been affected by Brexit.

Talk to bus drivers, shop workers, plumbers, carpenters, people in low skilled jobs.

Okay. I mean I do, my family is full of them.

My brother has a specific commercial building trade, and he hates Brexit. It has cost him lots of well-paid work abroad, and has both bumped up the price of materials and reduced the simplicity of supply so meaning fewer builds of the type he can work on.

My brother-in-law is a van driver, reliant on companies having smooth supply routes across the channel. He’s been laid off by struggling companies three times in the past two years, because of Brexit.

Kandinsky is a paid up member of the Farage school of 'politics'. And her anti-foreigner views have always come through. And believed Cameron would have never called the Brexit Referendum if it was not for Farage, and that it is the reason why she admires him (if I remember correctly 'loves him').

Sunak knows that Brexit is a disaster (witness his comments to NI that they have the best of both worlds, the UK and EU markets) but like Starmer he is worried about rigidly pro-Brexit voters and he is moving to the Right (witness his comments about immigrants on boats) so as to capture voters who hate immigrants. And of course he predicted correctly all that would go wrong if Truss became PM and he had to swiftly reverse her ill-conceived policies. However, I think the Tories are so far down that no-one can save them at the next GE.

Talk to bus drivers, shop workers, plumbers, carpenters, people in low skilled jobs.

Funnily enough, we' ve had a part share in a house in France for some 30 years which has been used for holidays. During that time we've employed a number of people to keep it in order for us and to do some quite radical repairs and alterations (like re-roofing and installing a new cesspit). They have all been British, settled in France for reasons of their own and making a living in part from working for Brits with property in the area.

You do seem very narrow in your beliefs, Kandinsky

I expect you never watched Auf Wiedersehn Pet either...

Kandinsky
Talk to bus drivers, shop workers, plumbers, carpenters, people in low skilled jobs

Plumbers and carpenters low skilled, come to that, bus drivers.
These are highly skilled professions who have signed apprentices and spent significant times in college training. What high falutin cloud do you live on? where those in white collar jobs look down on those who work with their hands

Anyway, have you tried to employ an ordinary tradesman recently? They are all fully employed. It has taken 6 months for a friend to find a plumber to fix a leak. DH did many of the second fit jobs on our extension, despite having had a heart attack, because we simply couldn't get floor layers, electricians, landscapers. they all had work for the next six months and a waiting list

They are not bothered if Eastern European people stay over here. They have all the work they need.

We have desperate labour shortages in the NHS, in teaching, in high tech industries, in manufacturing, in service industries in construction

What obscure high unemployment area do you live in? Cloud Cuckoo land?

Please Kandinsky listen to this

www.google.com/search?q=kiaran+the+van+driver+brexit+james+obrien&rlz=1C1SQJL_enGB859GB859&oq=kiaran+the+van+driver+brexit+james+obrien+&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i10i160l5.21394j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:5157ed36,vid:8Y8qUlQHgC4

Siope

Er… it was the will of the people to join in 1973.

Things change.

By a much bigger margin