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New immigration bill - how on earth will it work?

(539 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Tue 07-Mar-23 07:49:34

So the latest wheeze from Sunak is to export every single asylum seeker who arrives on our shores, who have not gone through the proper channels or “safe route”

So,

Can anyone explain what safe routes are available.

Can anyone explain the countries willing to accept these exports?

Rwanda has agreed some sort of mutual export agreement - so they will take a few hundred in exchange for us taking theirs. So I’m unclear how that will reduce the pressure - if it ever gets off the ground.

Can anyone explain where all these people are going to be held whilst waiting export, as the law is to apply retrospectively.

Can anyone explain how the Tory government is NOT breaking international law?

growstuff Tue 07-Mar-23 20:07:05

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD

It is possible to want secure borders without being a racist.

Nobody has said that it isn't, GG13. But then, I don't see you rushing to agree with the proposed legislation...

I definitely do not agree with the proposed Bill.

I have always advocated for folks to be able to claim asylum from abroad (British Embassy or suchlike) cuts out people trafficking gangs.

It just gets rather tedious when racism is constantly brought into any discussion on immigration.

The problem is that racists weaponise it and mix it up with all sorts of other accusations against people with dark skin, especially if they're Muslim.

Katie59 Tue 07-Mar-23 20:39:21

If only we had a suitable “safe” island that would be migrants/asylum seekers could be sent, that would solve a lot of Sunak’s problems

Seriously if migrants do get to the UK it’s going to be very tough to remove them, stoping them in France would be much better, processing genuine asylum seekers before they cross the channel.

Oreo Tue 07-Mar-23 20:39:52

Glorianny

This is from Global Citizen
I can't say it better

No one puts their children in a boat unless the water is safer than the land"
A poem about seeking asylum.
By Michael Wilson
September 7, 2015
Poetry and art aren't just indulgences, or for decoration. They're forms of expression which can do things that essays or political speeches can't. Poetry in particular can convey additional aspects of the human experience, and help us to see life from a different angle.

Warsan Shire, a Somali-British writer and poet in her 20s, uses her work to explore stories of escape and journeys. The poem below, entitled "Home", is written from the perspective of someone escaping violence, and losing their home. Not only is Shire a very talented writer, this poem is also a powerful answer to common claims that asylum seekers are moving for economic reasons, or because they just feel like it. The majority of the Syrian people who have attempted to enter Europe in recent months were legitimately fearing for their lives, and felt like they had no other choice.

If you don't enjoy graphic poetic images, this poem may not be for you. But if you're ready for a vivid picture, read on.

no one leaves home unless
home is the mouth of a shark
you only run for the border
when you see the whole city running as well

your neighbours running faster than you
breath bloody in their throats
the boy you went to school with
who kissed you dizzy behind the old tin factory
is holding a gun bigger than his body
you only leave home
when home won't let you stay.

no one leaves home unless home chases you
fire under feet
hot blood in your belly
it's not something you ever thought of doing
until the blade burnt threats into
your neck
and even then you carried the anthem under
your breath
only tearing up your passport in an airport toilets
sobbing as each mouthful of paper
made it clear that you wouldn't be going back.

you have to understand,
that no one puts their children in a boat
unless the water is safer than the land
no one burns their palms
under trains
beneath carriages
no one spends days and nights in the stomach of a truck
feeding on newspaper unless the miles travelled
means something more than journey.
no one crawls under fences
no one wants to be beaten
pitied

no one chooses refugee camps
or strip searches where your
body is left aching
or prison,
because prison is safer
than a city of fire
and one prison guard
in the night
is better than a truckload
of men who look like your father
no one could take it
no one could stomach it
no one skin would be tough enough

the
go home blacks
refugees
dirty immigrants
asylum seekers
sucking our country dry
niggers with their hands out
they smell strange
savage
messed up their country and now they want
to mess ours up
how do the words
the dirty looks
roll off your backs
maybe because the blow is softer
than a limb torn off

or the words are more tender
than fourteen men between
your legs
or the insults are easier
to swallow
than rubble
than bone
than your child body
in pieces.
i want to go home,
but home is the mouth of a shark
home is the barrel of the gun
and no one would leave home
unless home chased you to the shore
unless home told you
to quicken your legs
leave your clothes behind
crawl through the desert
wade through the oceans
drown
save
be hunger
beg
forget pride
your survival is more important

no one leaves home until home is a sweaty voice in your ear
saying-
leave,
run away from me now
i dont know what i've become
but i know that anywhere
is safer than here.

Very emotional but ‘unless the water is safer than the land’
Ahem! France?
There is no sensible logic to risking your life or your child by getting into a dinghy on a French beach to cross the Channel.

MaizieD Tue 07-Mar-23 20:56:39

^Very emotional but ‘unless the water is safer than the land’
Ahem! France?^

Oh, FGS. I've had this 'debate' with someone on twitter today.

They want to come to the UK.

They are human beings who have lost everything. It's not much to allow them a bit of agency over where they would like to end up. It really isn't a case of 'beggars can't be choosers'.

Some of them come because they can speak English, some come because they have relatives here. Some maybe, might (erroneously) think that the UK is a nice place. Whatever the reason, I don't think that choice should be denied to them.

And, if some people aren't being racist then they're being fascist, demonising and 'othering' a section of humanity.

MaizieD Tue 07-Mar-23 21:07:48

MaizieD

^The question is^

Why?

The answer surely is, Brexity government, Priti Patel and now Suella Braverman. And pandering to the racists who voted to leave the EU.

This is where I first spoke of racists. In answer to a (rhetorical) question.

Why have the tories allowed this situation to happen? I think my answer is absolutely valid.

Incidentally. Boat crossings have only become a huge problem since Johnson's Brexit. Before that we could use the EU's Dublin Agreement.

growstuff Tue 07-Mar-23 21:21:34

So the UK is a bit further west than France. France is further west than many other countries. Where does it end? It would mean that the countries bordering on the Mediterranean would end up with everybody. Why should they be lumbered with the problem, just because others want to turn a blind eye to what's happening in the world?

Glorianny Tue 07-Mar-23 22:10:09

There's around 11,000 miles of coastline in this country. The idea that you can police all of it is ridiculous. Of course refugees will be put more at risk as boats try to make the journey in the dark, avoiding patrols and aiming for deserted beaches. Then they will disappear into the black economy and the power of the gang masters.
Of course the government won't have to count them.

Wyllow3 Tue 07-Mar-23 22:16:57

Very valid point, seems to be ignored by the government: they have actually more control over regular landings in known places.

And the other question raised, oh well they should never have left other parts of Europe, especially France, thats just chucking an international issue back to another European country, it solves nothing.

Siope Tue 07-Mar-23 23:00:09

Sunak has tweeted about this today. Bear in mind this Bill will make all asylum seekers illegal immigrants. This is what he says:

If you come to the UK illegally:

➡️ You can’t claim asylum

➡️ You can’t benefit from our modern slavery protections

➡️ You can’t make spurious human rights claims

➡️ You can’t stay

The bold is mine. Are those of you in favour of this Bill actually happy for the UK to allow slavery?

Casdon Tue 07-Mar-23 23:13:21

Glorianny

There's around 11,000 miles of coastline in this country. The idea that you can police all of it is ridiculous. Of course refugees will be put more at risk as boats try to make the journey in the dark, avoiding patrols and aiming for deserted beaches. Then they will disappear into the black economy and the power of the gang masters.
Of course the government won't have to count them.

That’s quite an irrelevant point, because the boats aren’t landing on Hebridean islands, are they? The south coast of England is the only entry point from the channel and that is about 340 miles.

Callistemon21 Tue 07-Mar-23 23:46:02

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

It was said on breakfast news that they will be held in two RAF Bases.

This scheme could only work if there were ways to apply for asylum in the U.K. before attempting to get here.

Concentration camps are not a good look.

concentration camps are not a good look

Emotive language is not helpful.

So our armed forces and their families were/are housed in concentration camps?

I thought we were more civilised than that.

The problem lies with the inadequacy of the system for processing asylum claims.
If more money and effort was put into that then the sooner decisions could be made, people allowed to stay, settle and work and those found not to be genuine refugees sent home again.

growstuff Wed 08-Mar-23 01:43:33

Casdon

Glorianny

There's around 11,000 miles of coastline in this country. The idea that you can police all of it is ridiculous. Of course refugees will be put more at risk as boats try to make the journey in the dark, avoiding patrols and aiming for deserted beaches. Then they will disappear into the black economy and the power of the gang masters.
Of course the government won't have to count them.

That’s quite an irrelevant point, because the boats aren’t landing on Hebridean islands, are they? The south coast of England is the only entry point from the channel and that is about 340 miles.

That's not quite true. Boats have been landing for years on the Suffolk and Norfolk coasts - allegedly!

Katie59 Wed 08-Mar-23 07:56:25

Why the UK?

1. They can speak English

2. Trafficking gangs can make money, migrants can travel freely in the EU so no money can be made by gangs.

By telling migrants that life is better in UK the gangs can charge to cross the channel, often migrants are indentured and pay back when working in UK but never get well paid work

That is probably why it has got worse since Brexit.

nanna8 Wed 08-Mar-23 08:03:12

I was under the impression the majority of the population voted for Brexit. Are the majority racist then ? Are the majority older people? Are the majority not very well educated? Just wondering.

growstuff Wed 08-Mar-23 08:04:54

How much spare capacity is actually available in RAF bases?

Apparently, there were 45,000 asylum seekers last year and most of them are still waiting to have their applications considered.

Apart from the fact I think the whole policy is inhumane, it bothers me that the blurb at the beginning of the legislation indicates that Braverman knows that it's possibly illegal. It really concerns me that a senior government minister (a lawyer) is prepared to push the limits of international and national law.

growstuff Wed 08-Mar-23 08:06:12

nanna8

I was under the impression the majority of the population voted for Brexit. Are the majority racist then ? Are the majority older people? Are the majority not very well educated? Just wondering.

No, it doesn't work like that. Nobody has ever claimed that everybody who voted for Brexit is racist or not well-educated.

growstuff Wed 08-Mar-23 08:09:31

Racists, those with low educational qualifications - and the elderly - make up a subset of those who voted to leave. They make up a bigger subset than the subset with same characteristics who voted to remain.

MaizieD Wed 08-Mar-23 08:19:43

Nobody has ever claimed that everybody who voted for Brexit is racist or not well-educated.

You could write that in letters of fire ten feet high, growstuff and you'll still get leave voters taking it personally.

Urmstongran Wed 08-Mar-23 08:24:25

I never took offence. People are entitled to their opinions. Plus I’m ‘elderly’. And didn’t go to university so ‘not well educated’. I’m not racist though. So yes, 2 out of 3 means I fit the space in the Venn diagram.

growstuff Wed 08-Mar-23 08:26:31

Thank goodness you mentioned Venn diagrams. I was thinking of trying to draw one, to demonstrate that not all Brexiters are racist, poorly educated or old.

MaizieD Wed 08-Mar-23 08:27:43

My favourite legal blogger thinks that the proposed legislation is unlikely to be passed and implemented before the next GE. It's just a vote winning/retaining ploy. I sincerely hope they are mistaken.

That is, of course, why the tories are doing nothing of a practical, legal, humane, nature to make the problem go away. They want to keep people stirred up about it.

davidallengreen.com/2023/03/the-illegal-migration-bill-is-about-political-theatre-not-serious-law-making/#respond

growstuff Wed 08-Mar-23 08:28:15

But but but Urmstongran it's not an opinion that more racists, poorly educated and old voted for Brexit! It's a fact!

What is irritating that people (wilfully?) misunderstand the data.

Maudi Wed 08-Mar-23 08:32:20

What if you are black or an ethnic minority and voted leave what does that make you? What if you have mixed race family but you are white and voted leave? Or do you have to be white to be racist? Sunak and Suella Braverman are people of colour and its their Bill going through parliament to Stop Illegal Migrants what group do they come under and to add to his sins Sunak voted Leave 🤔 Uneducated, Racist or Old or do some have a get out clause?

Urmstongran Wed 08-Mar-23 08:33:47

At least I’m educated well enough to remember Venn diagrams growstuff from my maths lessons! 🤣

MaizieD Wed 08-Mar-23 08:33:57

Urmstongran

I never took offence. People are entitled to their opinions. Plus I’m ‘elderly’. And didn’t go to university so ‘not well educated’. I’m not racist though. So yes, 2 out of 3 means I fit the space in the Venn diagram.

It's not an 'opinion' though, Ug. It's a fact. Sadly, the 'racist' (does xenophobic sound better?) element is the tory's target demographic in promoting this legislation.