Identifying as a different gender

X posted with you there violetsky

Glorianny

Oh was it a race? I thought it was a discussion.

Not really, it wasn't. You were like the usual dog with a bone - not engaging with what I am actually saying, discounting any explanations and shouting 'bully' until I stopped bothering to explain. Do you have a word for that behaviour?

VioletSky

Iam64

My experience is that every discussion about trans issues quickly divides. The majority want to develop discussion with a focus on the welfare of children and protection of safe spaces for women.
Glory and Violet get on their moral high ground, disagree, disrupt and accuse those who don’t agree with them of being wrong.
This constant reference to female bullying is another example of dismissing other women . There’s a clear suggestion that those of us who don’t agree with you haven’t transcended onto your moral high ground

You have just listed everyone you don't agree with

That hardly seems fair

I don't make personal comments or start arguments but get all sorts of accusations thrown at me

This is just another and just as unsubstantiated

Interesting isn't it that the welfare of children is mentioned when several times on this thread responsibility has been placed on children for trying to control a teacher?
I don't see how making such a judgement on so little evidence can be considered focussing on any aspect of their welfare.
As for the moral high ground, insisting the facts of the case are understood is nothing to do with morals, just asking for accuracy.
Anyone is entitled to state their point of view. They are not entitled to continue questioning someone when an answer has been given, just because that answer didn't suit them. As I said to Smileless2012 you are quite entitled to your own ideas about bullying, you don't have to agree with me.

Iam64

Gloryannie,
one of the typical behaviours of bullies is they will join in targeting someone then deny their involvement and say they were acting as an individual
I can assure you, any comment I make, is made by me as an individual. If I post support of a previous post, it isn’t joining or targeting someone. You seem to be accusing anyone who disagrees or challenges Violet of bullying. Violet hasn’t responded yet but my view is that her views, like yours, are in the minority when the subject is trans issues . That means many individuals disagree with you. It doesn’t mean women joining up to practice female bullying

Perhaps not, but joining in any group discussion requires that you read any answers before you post. Now it may just be that people can't be bothered to read answers, if so they are not bullies but just plain lazy. I have explained why I considered it bullying- the same questions asked, professionalism questioned, answers ignored.
Perhaps you can explain how a group of people demanding the same things but refusing to recognise the replies should be regarded.
In my experience it is bullying.

Exactly Iam. If there are more on a particular thread that disagree with your point of view, in all likelihood there will be more who question the point of view you have. It isn't targeting anyone and it isn't bullying.

Bullying's a serious allegation and shouldn't be bandied about to try and silence others because they worry about being accused of it even though it isn't happening.

Smileless2012

Exactly Iam. If there are more on a particular thread that disagree with your point of view, in all likelihood there will be more who question the point of view you have. It isn't targeting anyone and it isn't bullying.

Bullying's a serious allegation and shouldn't be bandied about to try and silence others because they worry about being accused of it even though it isn't happening.

I'm not trying to silence anyone. As I said I think it is bullying. You are quite entitled to disagree with me. But why keep asking the same questions? Do you really expect to get a different answer.
The idea that there was some sort of deeper questioning of VS isn't evidenced if you read the thread. She posted about knowing guidelines change, explained how and why she followed them and her professionalism was questioned again. It doesn't matter how many people are involved if it is the same question being asked it is either bullying or not reading the thread. Take your choice.

The rest of the class writing on the board which pronouns they wished to be known by was perhaps not an attempt to control the teacher, but an attempt to embarrass and/or undermine her confidence and undermine her authority.

They could have asked to speak to her about this and as I posted earlier, the head being present when she apologised may well have been viewed by the children as their teacher not being worthy of the respect they would show others.

Knowing which pronoun someone wishes to be known by and using that pronoun is an example of respect. IMO the classes decision to write their preferred pronouns on the board, rather then engaging with the teacher was disrespectful, and respect works both ways.

I refer you to Robert Winston on Question Time. Most right thinking people would say that he is an expert. He said No-one can change sex, it's in every cell of your body, or words to that effect!

Glorianny
This demanding replies?
refusing to recognise the replies
In my experience it is bullying.
In mine too, but doing that, together with slipping in diversions seems to be your modus operandi.

Phew- thank you smileless for getting this back on track. Talking about virtual bullying is boring and unnecessary.

You may not be trying to silence anyone Glorianny but generic allegations of bullying can and do have that effect.

Smileless2012

The rest of the class writing on the board which pronouns they wished to be known by was perhaps not an attempt to control the teacher, but an attempt to embarrass and/or undermine her confidence and undermine her authority.

They could have asked to speak to her about this and as I posted earlier, the head being present when she apologised may well have been viewed by the children as their teacher not being worthy of the respect they would show others.

Knowing which pronoun someone wishes to be known by and using that pronoun is an example of respect. IMO the classes decision to write their preferred pronouns on the board, rather then engaging with the teacher was disrespectful, and respect works both ways.

There had been an assembly about this. There are diversity and inclusion prefects. You have no idea if the children had tried to discuss the matter with her, but you blame them. As I said for some the children's welfare is only important if you agree with their actions, if they do something you don't like you are prepared to make all sorts of assumptions about them.

Looking after the welfare of children involves trying to see what is happening from their point of view, accepting and understanding their ideas, and then either explaining with care and consideration where they are wrong, or accommodating their views, and shifting your own position. It doesn't mean ignoring them because you don't like what they are saying or blaming them because of the way they express themselves.

Let's hope it can stay on track nanna.

Incidentally children can only undermine your authority if you give them the power to do so. One of the ways you do that is to regard any of their actions as an attempt to undermine you. So if they write on the board you accept it, you embrace it, you claim back the power, usually by agreeing it's an interesting subject and thanking them for bringing it to your notice. Most good teachers know that.

Yes I know there was an assembly about this and no, I don't know if any of the children had tried to talk to the teacher about this and you don't know if they did Glorianny.

I know what's required to look after the welfare of children and all of the things you've listed work both ways.

Having followed this from page 1 to page 20 and read some newspaper reports I still think that the talk the girls had received very recently on gender had triggered their behaviour and they were trying to provoke the teacher. She had presumably been in the habit of saying good afternoon girls and had no comeback! It’s reported that she told the girl that wanted her pronoun to be they that her parents would have to be informed and give their consent. Perhaps it would have been better to have just said good afternoon everyone after that, but it could have given the girls the green light to make more demands. Sounds as if the head was trying to humour her fee paying pupils at the expense of a member of staff.

Smileless2012

The rest of the class writing on the board which pronouns they wished to be known by was perhaps not an attempt to control the teacher, but an attempt to embarrass and/or undermine her confidence and undermine her authority.

They could have asked to speak to her about this and as I posted earlier, the head being present when she apologised may well have been viewed by the children as their teacher not being worthy of the respect they would show others.

Knowing which pronoun someone wishes to be known by and using that pronoun is an example of respect. IMO the classes decision to write their preferred pronouns on the board, rather then engaging with the teacher was disrespectful, and respect works both ways.

I agree. I wonder what gave the children confidence to do that? Or more to the point what made them think that that was acceptable. It's horrible behaviour, whatever the disagreement.
It that is what the ethos of the school has engendered, it's not a good look, is it?

I completely understand that taking issue with the behaviour of an authority figure can be difficult, but in every organisation with which I have been connected there have been protocols in place, which usually involve approaching the person direct - either on your own, or via a representative of some sort (in this case a class rep or even a parent would seem appropriate). If that didn't respite the situation, escalating through the chain of command is usually the next recommended step. I don't have personal experience of private education, but from friends who have taught in expensive schools and those who have sent children to them I understand that parental views are taken very seriously, so if any member of the class had asked a parent to 'have a word' it would have been listened to. The Head should then have dealt with the matter privately, in line with whatever the full story actually was (which, of course, we don't really know).

Ganging up and behaving as they did would not be considered acceptable at all, outside of serious situations such as those in the film 'If', or union action after all else had failed.

We cross-posted, Brismum, but I agree with your last sentences.

As an additional thought, I really don't know why 'gender' has to be discussed in schools. It does seem to put ideas in the heads of children, and is anyway such a divisive concept that however it is done it will upset someone. Look at all the threads on Mumsnet that have been about children being taught that there are multiple genders, for instance.

I know what's required to look after the welfare of children and all of the things you've listed work both ways
But the teacher is the adult, and it is the adult who needs to control the situation, and that can never be done successfully by ignoring children. It might have worked in the past, but not in 21st century.And ignoring them is not showing respect.

There are many private schools that encourage behaviour some would find unacceptable. Parents choose them and pay the fees because that is the ethos they want. Presumably the school's views are widely known. (The appointment of diversity and inclusion prefects might be a clue). Condemning the girls' behaviour might suit some, others might regard it as independent thinking and action, and encourage it.
You have no idea.
The teacher however must have been fully ware of the ethos of the school and should have either coped with the challenge or left. She was the one out of step.

You have no idea.

Isn't that 'We have no idea' ?

I acknowledged that, which is, of course, why I said that the Head could deal with it in line with the full story.

The funniest thing about this thread is that there are posters questioning a professional about her conforming to guidelines, and asking what she will do if they change. To which she replied she will continue to abide by them (as all professionals do).
Then they support someone working in a school who has plainly not stuck to the school's guidelines and in doing so has caused children to rebel and challenge her. And apparently that's the children's fault.
Anyone spot the discrepancy here????

Oh? Who has supported the teacher not conforming to the guidelines?

We don't know what they were, do we?

Doodledog

Oh? Who has supported the teacher not conforming to the guidelines?

We don't know what they were, do we?

We know there were diversity and inclusion prefects and an assembly was given by older girls about gender.
We know one pupil wanted to be called "they"
We know the pupils wrote their chosen pronouns on the board.
We know the class objected to being called "girls"
We know the teacher had to apologise to them.

So either she wasn't conforming to the guidelines or she was doing so incredibly badly. Doesn't really matter does it? She certainly wasn't acting the way the school wanted.

I don't know why that's funny or why you feel the need to keep resurrecting something that's been dealt with Glorianny. A question was asked of a poster and answered.

As for supporting the teacher who is the subject of this thread, it is not her error that's being supported rather her right for the matter to have been dealt with professionally which I for one, don't agree was done when the head chose to stand by her side while she gave her apology.

This may well have contributed to what you've described as the children challenging her and rebelling, the later which I do not agree was acceptable behaviour.