Identifying as a different gender

Ok lets put aside the b word because it obviously makes people uncomfortable

All I have ever asked for us to feel welcome in discussion

I've pointed out things that make me feel unwelcome

Whether or not that changes is individual choice but there have been enough deleted comments on trans threads (not reported by me unless I said so) that bear out what I am saying

Unless you don't agree with gransnet guidelines either

But yes I will follow the guidelines at work whether I agree with them or not because I'm a professional.

If circumstances arise where I believe those guidelines put someone at risk, I will take the issue yo the lead. Of ot isn't resolved I will take it further. That's also part of my training

Does that tie up that one now?

Smileless2012

I don't know why that's funny or why you feel the need to keep resurrecting something that's been dealt with Glorianny. A question was asked of a poster and answered.

As for supporting the teacher who is the subject of this thread, it is not her error that's being supported rather her right for the matter to have been dealt with professionally which I for one, don't agree was done when the head chose to stand by her side while she gave her apology.

This may well have contributed to what you've described as the children challenging her and rebelling, the later which I do not agree was acceptable behaviour.

You see that's imposing your views on the school.

One of the reasons the head may have had to stand next to the teacher when she apologised, was because she had lost control of the class and without the head's presence the class wouldn't have listened.

If the teacher had consistently behaved inappropriately the head would also need to oversee her behaviour.

Some schools encourage children to express their views and expect staff to cope with this. It's an ethos which some teachers can't cope with.. If it is school policy then they have to accept it.
I've worked in such conditions. Children contribute to discussion and take part in decisions. They sometimes criticise adults. Some parents want their children raised in such circumstances. It may not be what you would accept.
It's actually really interesting to see children develop, especially girls who develop confidence and become much more assertive.

No it isn't Glorianny, it's expressing my opinion. I doubt anyone is a position of authority at the school is reading this thread and even if they are, I'm not in a position to force an unwelcome decision or ruling on the school, so how can I be imposing my views on it?

Smileless2012

No it isn't Glorianny, it's expressing my opinion. I doubt anyone is a position of authority at the school is reading this thread and even if they are, I'm not in a position to force an unwelcome decision or ruling on the school, so how can I be imposing my views on it?

You are judging the school by your standards which may not be the school's standards.
Your unacceptable might be their desirable.

It's funny that one person is expected to abide by guidelines but another isn't.

Smileless it doesn't matter

When we sign up to anything, be that a job or social media, we asked to abide by their values, policies and guidelines.

The real world is not one big soap box, people can exercise their liberty to say what they like but they can't force others to listen or host them.

As an example:

This is one of those things it's clear people don't understand when they complain they have a comment deleted and blame the person they said the thing too (even without evidence they reported). That's not how it works, you break the rules, the guidance or the ethos you signed up too... you risk being told you are not a good fit for that place.

That's the real world. No one owes us anything

It's on every single level of human existence and it ranges from society wide to the individual

Laws
Policies
Rules
Guidelines
Boundaries

There isn't a single human out there who cannot impose on another's freedom of expression and that ranges from going to prison to losing a relationship

The only thing people really have is the choice break them

Who said that it's OK for the teacher in this case not to be expected to abide by the guide lines but another is expected too? I'm not going to ask you who the another is because it's blatantly obvious, and I don't know why you wont let the matter rest.

There's a real effort to move this thread on and get back to the topic in hand and you seem to be determined not to allow it.

Yes, I am judging by my own standards, so what; isn't that what people do? Isn't that what you are doing?

Glorianny

Smileless2012

I don't know why that's funny or why you feel the need to keep resurrecting something that's been dealt with Glorianny. A question was asked of a poster and answered.

As for supporting the teacher who is the subject of this thread, it is not her error that's being supported rather her right for the matter to have been dealt with professionally which I for one, don't agree was done when the head chose to stand by her side while she gave her apology.

This may well have contributed to what you've described as the children challenging her and rebelling, the later which I do not agree was acceptable behaviour.

You see that's imposing your views on the school.

One of the reasons the head may have had to stand next to the teacher when she apologised, was because she had lost control of the class and without the head's presence the class wouldn't have listened.

If the teacher had consistently behaved inappropriately the head would also need to oversee her behaviour.

Some schools encourage children to express their views and expect staff to cope with this. It's an ethos which some teachers can't cope with.. If it is school policy then they have to accept it.
I've worked in such conditions. Children contribute to discussion and take part in decisions. They sometimes criticise adults. Some parents want their children raised in such circumstances. It may not be what you would accept.
It's actually really interesting to see children develop, especially girls who develop confidence and become much more assertive.

Asking questions and inviting discussion is one thing.

Making the teacher stand in front of the class and apologise with the head teacher standing there to make sure she did so sounds more like intentional humiliation and a form of bullying.

How can that be avoided Callistermon if the whole class is upset and the whole class deserves an apology?

The school has an ethos

The parents and children chose that ethos

An adult cane into that ethos and chose to ignore it

Children are deserving of respect and also deserving of apology when warranted

As much as some believe an adult should command respect from children, that's not going to happen and it should not either.

We show children that we back up our ethos or we lose their respect and that is the choice and fault of the individual

Also another good lesson to teach children is that they should become adults who can apologise and hold themselves accountable

Any adult who cannot apologise to a child is not a trustworthy adult

I find it very odd that anyone should think apologising to a group of children isn't desirable. Why? If you get something wrong you should own it. A head teacher's job is to supervise her staff. Sometimes that involves being in the classroom with a teacher. It isn't meant to humiliate, nor is it bullying, it is doing her job.
Children have more respect for teachers who admit their mistakes.

VioletSky

How can that be avoided Callistermon if the whole class is upset and the whole class deserves an apology?

The school has an ethos

The parents and children chose that ethos

An adult cane into that ethos and chose to ignore it

Children are deserving of respect and also deserving of apology when warranted

As much as some believe an adult should command respect from children, that's not going to happen and it should not either.

We show children that we back up our ethos or we lose their respect and that is the choice and fault of the individual

I didn't say they didn't Violetsky

Not sure how you read something in my post that wasn't there 🤔

And Glorianny of course.

Or, in fact, failed to read something which was there.

But understandably predictable.

My question to you Callistermon was "How can that be avoided if the whole class is upset and the whole class deserves an apology"

I then followed up with my thinking on why apology is the right thing to do and not humiliation or bullying. glorianny also followed that up with hers

You now say "I didn't say they didnt"

But I didn't say you said they didn't deserve an apology. I asked, how could it be avoided that she apologise to the class of children she upset?

Here is another question

How is that humiliation and bullying?

BTW you don't have to answer

I'm only asking because I don't understand your reasoning and would like to

BTW you don't have to answer

Oh, ok.

Just read my post again to see what I actually said. 🙂

The teacher apologising isn't the issue. The issue is that the head was stood next to her when she did so.

I agree Callistemon that head doing so would have been humiliating, as if she couldn't be trusted to do so without supervision.

No one that I can see has suggested that apologising too, in this case a class full of children isn't desirable or that ever apologising to children isn't desirable.

No one's suggested that an apology could or should have been avoided.

Glorianny

I find it very odd that anyone should think apologising to a group of children isn't desirable. Why? If you get something wrong you should own it. A head teacher's job is to supervise her staff. Sometimes that involves being in the classroom with a teacher. It isn't meant to humiliate, nor is it bullying, it is doing her job.
Children have more respect for teachers who admit their mistakes.

I find it very odd that anyone should think apologising to a group of children isn't desirable

I didn't say that did I.
Read my post.

A head teacher's job is to supervise her staff. Sometimes that involves being in the classroom with a teacher
As a support.
That wasn't supportive, it was humiliating.

Perhaps that's what is the matter with this thread; posters reading things that are not there or failing to read what is actually there.

I'll leave you with it.

Reading things that aren't there and/or not reading what's actually there does seem to be causing one or two problems doesn't it Callistemon.

callistemon I read

"Making the teacher stand in front of the class and apologise with the head teacher standing there to make sure she did so"

Which I read as 2 issues

1. Making her apologise
2. Standing there to make sure she did it

You have clarified what you meant.. which is great, thank you but it was an easy mistake

But I don't agree that's humiliation and bullying, that's standard practice. Have you heard of HR? It's the heads job

3am hot flush

I think it is humiliation and bullying too. I would hand in my notice and find a more pleasant environment to work in. I would also go and see a lawyer and sue them.

Why though?

Fir what reasons us it humiliation and bullying?

You must understand the head wouldn't have been there to make sure she did it, she would have been there to witness it.

By witnessing it she is protecting the teacher

By witnessing it she is protecting the teacher how is that protecting the teacher, unless the head thought the children may claim she hadn't apologised, even when she had.

If there are any further complaints the head can say the situation is resolved

Yes the children or parents not being satisified with the apology is possible so the head can remove that possibility by witnessing it

So if a complaint goes to:

Governors
LEA
OFSTED

The head can say it was resolved

The head is accountable to others too so that how it works