Pitch for leader ?

Siope
data.world bank.org
Shows UK birth rate of 1.6 for 2021
For example

More information-
nrscotland.gov.uk
Scotland had second lowest annual total of live births since records began in 1855. Rate of 1.31 ….
28/6/22

* ronib* thank you. They say they use data from UN calculations, but, following their source link, I see it’s from UN projections, and I can’t find (aka have more useful things to do) the data they are relying on.

I can’t be bothered to work it out either, but at a casual glance, I assume they get 1.56 by taking a fairly crude average of the known birth rates (England and Wales 1.61, Scotland 1.29, Northern Ireland 1.81) and dividing them by 3.

So many reasons why that isn’t a useful approach to issues relation to population decline (not your fault for using the figure, obviously).

My 1.29 for Scotland was for 2020, as I think that’s the year the World Data Bank were working from, but I could be wrong there.

Falling populations and low birth rates are a world wide phenomena. I think Italy and Japan have the lowest rates in the world. Even countries like India and Bangladesh, previously everyone's cliche for huge population, now have birth rates close to replacement only. Africa is the only continent with birthrates still well above replacement level.

Looking at things globally, population rise is being driven by increased longevity, world wide. And a good thing too. Many of the problems of this planet are driven by the huge population of Homo Sapiens that inhabit it and to know that within 50 years the total number will have peaked and will then start to reduce, can only be greeted with sighs of relief for our descendants.

Silly arguments whether from assinine MPs or anyone else about birthrates in tiny areas of the world's land masses do strike me as being a lot of twaddle. Over population, everywhere is resolved more than anything by educating women who can then enter the labour force, and are able to make their way in the world and not having to submit themselves to marriage and endless pregnancies. When a woman is making a contribution to the household income, that income is too precious to be lost because she cannot work because she is expecting yet another child.

In an ideal world, the human population should at least halve, it would drastically reduce the contribution we are making to global warming and enable humankind and the quintillions of other species that live on this planet with us to live more in harmony.

Monica have you read any books by Julian Simon?

No. Should I ?

I have just done so. I disagree with him so profoundly, but not on the grounds he uses and he saw his opponents as being Malthusians, and I am not a follower of malthus.

But all this is irrelevant to this thread so I will go no further.

Monica sorry you think it’s irrelevant to the thread as it does completely contradict your statements. It’s always good practice to present both sides?

Remember that overseas students who contribute a lot to the economy, very often return home or move on to other countries within a few years of graduation.

Their experience of British universities is usually positive and enhances the UK's "soft power" in the world - all the more needed now that we have thrown away the advantages of EU membership.

Or another way of looking at it is - we’re not training up/educating our own children and instead places are going to people who will not play an active part in the Uk economy? And we will have a shortage of key workers?

ronib

Or another way of looking at it is - we’re not training up/educating our own children and instead places are going to people who will not play an active part in the Uk economy? And we will have a shortage of key workers?

That’s not true is it? There are sufficient university places for all UK students who achieve the right grades, and a surplus for students from overseas. If there were no overseas students courses would not run, and some universities would doubtless cease to exist.

15.7 percent of all undergraduates and 39.1 percent postgraduates are international students at universities in England and Wales.
I don’t think we do have sufficient places for Uk students in the sought after courses - medicine, veterinary science, dentistry regardless of grades.
It’s a bit worrying that at postgraduate level almost 40 percent are international as this category will have the more sought after expertise.

ronib

15.7 percent of all undergraduates and 39.1 percent postgraduates are international students at universities in England and Wales.
I don’t think we do have sufficient places for Uk students in the sought after courses - medicine, veterinary science, dentistry regardless of grades.
It’s a bit worrying that at postgraduate level almost 40 percent are international as this category will have the more sought after expertise.

That’s a low percentage for undergraduate courses ronib. Do you really think that 15% more places for British born students would make a difference? As international students pay higher fees, what impact would it have on university funding? Don’t you think students benefit from learning with others from different backgrounds? Do you know that a percentage of the 15% of international students come to the UK to study because they already have family connections?
For postgraduate courses there are usually more places available than students to do them, so that isn’t really an issue, although the universities benefit hugely from the fees. Do you not realise how many British students do postgraduate courses overseas, it’s not just one way traffic.
I really think you’re focusing on a non issue.

Casdon to be fair, I hadn’t thought about it before. The USA in 2020 had the highest number of international students and the Uk was placed second in the world.
I think some Uk universities have diluted grades and standards just to fill places at u/grad level. I don’t see that increased numbers of students leads to a better learning experience overall.
Can’t help but feel that higher education has become an industry in its own right?

Casdon

ronib

Or another way of looking at it is - we’re not training up/educating our own children and instead places are going to people who will not play an active part in the Uk economy? And we will have a shortage of key workers?

That’s not true is it? There are sufficient university places for all UK students who achieve the right grades, and a surplus for students from overseas. If there were no overseas students courses would not run, and some universities would doubtless cease to exist.

Absolutely correct! Overseas students pay, on average, three times the amount home students pay. Universities are providing extra places for them, not "instead of".

ronib

Casdon to be fair, I hadn’t thought about it before. The USA in 2020 had the highest number of international students and the Uk was placed second in the world.
I think some Uk universities have diluted grades and standards just to fill places at u/grad level. I don’t see that increased numbers of students leads to a better learning experience overall.
Can’t help but feel that higher education has become an industry in its own right?

How do you justify this?

The only thing that is correct about your post is that higher education has become an industry, encouraged by the government to earn foreign income.

They haven't "diluted" standards because their catchment is the world rather than the home market.

Grow stuff one university lecturer was told that he had to pass students who in normal times would fail. The problem is that some, not all, universities do not select the right students for their courses.

Just one? How many university lecturers do you think there are in the UK?

What experience and understanding do you have of university selection processes?

Grow stuff … my mistake - all the university lecturers at one particular university were told this and one told me.

Seems that the Office for Students has introduced/ or was introducing a system for fining universities with poor graduate pass rates and poor outcomes for finding employment within a given time frame - Guardian article last September . This probably explains the situation of passing inadequate work ? Seems strange times under this current administration?

Casdon

I’m going to talk sense. My dog would make a better prime minister than either of them. He’s kind, loyal, knows how to interact with people to best effect, has no racial or gender prejudices (although not keen on squirrels or birds), intuitive, and funny. He doesn’t open his mouth and spout ill informed rabble rousing rubbish. He’s also very handsome but that’s beside the point.

Well said Casdon.

ronib

Seems that the Office for Students has introduced/ or was introducing a system for fining universities with poor graduate pass rates and poor outcomes for finding employment within a given time frame - Guardian article last September . This probably explains the situation of passing inadequate work ? Seems strange times under this current administration?

There was talk about plans to do this, so that universities didn't take government money without delivering. It puts pressure on universities only to accept students who will stick with the course and achieve good outcomes. It also puts pressure on lecturers to work harder to support their students. It does not mean that standards have been lowered. Admittedly what my partner, a professor and admissions tutor at a Russell Group uni, says is also anecdotal.

Growstuff Russell Group universities are better placed at attracting good quality students than non Russell. From my understanding of the situation, middle and lower ranked universities are under pressure to accept students for some courses who have little interest in the subject and poor ability.
My son resigned as a lecturer after 7 years and is now in industry where he is thriving. So there ends the anecdote.

My DH was at a university lecturer about 30 years ago at a university renown for its scientific courses. This Russell/non-Russell stuff is hokum.

He lost heart when he had to teach Engineering first years remedial maths. British students.

I see your anecdote and counter it with mine. There's nothing new under the sun.