Pitch for leader ?

Volver 3 - interesting - teaching second year Engineering did my son in but he also gained very valuable research skills which he is developing in his new role.

So I always thought that Russell/non Russell did have different admission standards? Also thought it might have had some social bias? Talking about English universities not the Scottish.

Talking about English universities not the Scottish.

So am I.

I have no idea whether it was Russell or not. Its was just an excellent university for technical subjects. In England.

The universities, places of higher education, and the student accommodation in my city offer work opportunities which are valuable to all the city's population. Without the overseas students (who come and stay all year for the length of their degree) there would be a lot more unemployment here. These students are a valuable part of the local economy.

Glorianny accommodation is available to both home and overseas students on postgraduate courses. So local employment is not entirely reliant on overseas students but on students and they could be Uk based.
Airlines will be profiting from overseas students arguably but some environmental concerns remain over air travel.
What is interesting is that 40 percent almost of postgraduates are from overseas. So I think an expansion of home grown postgraduates in science, engineering and technology would do more to improve the Uk economy long term than the short term economic benefit of overseas postgraduates.
Just something to think about….

I am constantly astonished at how literal some people are.

All those overseas students coming here will contribute to climate change. I mean, come on.

Slight exaggeration Volver3 … I thought everyone went on and on ad nauseum about airplanes and climate change?

You have failed to understand the point about the need for more home grown scientists, technologists and engineers who push and find solutions to problems caused in part by the explosion in population.

As a home grown scientist married to a home grown engineer, I understand fine thanks.

Shall we have a chat about the international nature of scientific research?

Maybe include Greta Thunburg?

Shall we have a chat about why this government refuses to properly fund higher education, thus making it essential that universities balance their books by taking foreign students’ extremely high fees?

Shall we also have a chat about the value that overseas students (full disclosure: I was one, in another country) bring to the educational experience - and thus to the earnings potential - of home students?

ronib

Maybe include Greta Thunburg?

Who is not British, an engineer, a scientist or a university graduate.

That post was not, as I realise it may appear, a challenge to volver, it was more by way of offering support.

I understood that Siope. 😉

Siope

Shall we have a chat about why this government refuses to properly fund higher education, thus making it essential that universities balance their books by taking foreign students’ extremely high fees?

Shall we also have a chat about the value that overseas students (full disclosure: I was one, in another country) bring to the educational experience - and thus to the earnings potential - of home students?

Yes Siope. I mentioned earlier to ronib about the number of British graduates who choose to do their postgraduate study abroad before returning home, and how our graduates benefit from working with students from overseas, but she didn’t pick up on that unfortunately.

volver3

As a home grown scientist married to a home grown engineer, I understand fine thanks.

Shall we have a chat about the international nature of scientific research?

Overseas postgrads and postdocs contribute to the knowledge base of UK universities because they have already studied abroad - and often they have studied/researched material not always covered fully in the UK. (And vice versa, of course.)

ronib Do you have any idea how much overseas postgrads pay for their courses and contribute to the UK economy?

Much of the expansion in the universities near me would not have happened without overseas students financial contributions. So there would be fewer UK students, less space and fewer modern facilities. We would be training scientists and engineers using out of date buildings and facilities.

Dear all I am halfway through reading Ian Dunt - Chapter on the Civil Service. Sorely in need of a complete shake up and there appears to be a major shortage of scientific, technical and engineering expertise in this organisation. As I believe you need to be a UK citizen to work for the government, seems a bit silly not to train for the skills we need to at least masters level.

So training 40 percent of a valuable asset and sending it abroad without any work benefits seems a bit illogical?

Also I do think that travel by plane should be curtailed but that’s another story.

ronib

Dear all I am halfway through reading Ian Dunt - Chapter on the Civil Service. Sorely in need of a complete shake up and there appears to be a major shortage of scientific, technical and engineering expertise in this organisation. As I believe you need to be a UK citizen to work for the government, seems a bit silly not to train for the skills we need to at least masters level.

So training 40 percent of a valuable asset and sending it abroad without any work benefits seems a bit illogical?

Also I do think that travel by plane should be curtailed but that’s another story.

Why aren’t you listening to what people who know more about this are saying ronib?
UK student numbers are up, both at undergraduate and post graduate level, including in the subjects you refer to.
Here’s a comprehensive report, with links to further detailed reports, published three months ago which will give you a broader picture.
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7857/

Thanks Casdon for your link. Looking at postgraduate taught/research degrees 448,000 were home students and 372,000 overseas.
The biggest subject winner in 2020 included combined science at u/g although technologies became one of the biggest subject losses.
Looking at the imeche.org (mechanical engineering) website, a figure of 173,000 is the shortfall in people in STEM subjects. This shortfall is estimated to cost the economy £1.5billion each year.

Bear in mind Ian Dunt’s chapter on the civil service in How Westminster works…. and you might begin to wonder how this lack of engineering, technical and scientific expertise can be hindering government.
Maybe draw your own conclusions on how to move forward into the 21st century. Much of the administration here seems to be in a time warp.

I genuinely don’t get your point ronib. There are place available for UK students on postgraduate courses. The fact that students opt not to do them isn’t to do with how many students from overseas are out-competing them for places - it’s because even if the UK students want to, so many can’t afford to carry on further study because of the cost of tuition fees and living expenses. It’s all laid out. Also in the Commons Library is a forecast that average student debt for those starting in 2022 will be £48,500. Add the cost of postgraduate study to that, it’s like a millstone round their necks for life.

Casdon okay no worries

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Siope ‘mad as a box of badgers’ thread might be interested?

Thanks, ronib. I’m losing the plot. I’ll pop it over there, and get it removed from here.

The government lifted the controls on how many students universities can admit some years ago. Universities can take as many foreign students as they like and still take all the home students that want to study there as well.