Puzzled about 'kidnapping' lambs

Katie59 no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

It's a bit like the garden. We don't use much fertiliser, none most of the time. Our gardens are glorious! Tomatoes are plentiful.

However, I save banana skins, grind them in water and douse some plants. I spray washingup liquid 2 t in a jug of water on roses - for aphids. I dump coffee grounds around 100s of azaleas, tea leaf on hydrangeas. Etc.

Hetty58

Katie59, how can you possibly believe such rubbish. Did you read my link (probably not) and do you think 14 hours travel is fine? Do you think all drivers follow the regulations - pathetic as they are?

People who kid themselves that higher welfare, free range, grass fed etc. anything means cruelty free need to wake up. Animal farming is barbaric and cruel - just more or less so.

I'm hoping (and praying) the current efforts to develop lab grown meat are successfully scaled up to factory production. As a vegan, I still have absolutely no objection to it, as no animal has to die - or suffer more than the equivalent of a blood test. It will be so efficient, growing muscle meat only, that lower prices should ensure it's success.

Well said Hetty58!

Hetty58

Unkind? I don't think so. The lambs look about ten weeks old, so would only have a few more weeks to live before being slaughtered - to end up on plates with a bit of mint sauce. Now, that's unkind! At least those three were rescued.

The orange powder on the show garden looks pretty harmless too, probably would wash off in the next shower.

The whole point of these actions is to raise public awareness. What's more disruptive, the protests - or the end of civilisation as we know it, mass starvation and the death of the planet?

The public are very well ‘aware’ of these issues but the idiot protesters should use the democratic process to get their message across. Who voted for them? Why don’t they do something constructive like working for one of the charities? They don’t because that would involve a bit of hard work!

Norah

Katie59 no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

It's a bit like the garden. We don't use much fertiliser, none most of the time. Our gardens are glorious! Tomatoes are plentiful.

However, I save banana skins, grind them in water and douse some plants. I spray washingup liquid 2 t in a jug of water on roses - for aphids. I dump coffee grounds around 100s of azaleas, tea leaf on hydrangeas. Etc.

This is the problem you think that compost in garden situation can be repeated on a commercial scale to grow enough food. Before chemical fertilizers were used the crop yields were about 1/4 of todays yields, which is fine if you have a small population. To feeding the global population today is not going to be happen with organic methods

The whole point of these actions is to raise public awareness. What's more disruptive, the protests - or the end of civilisation as we know it, mass starvation and the death of the planet?

These protests are contributing absolutely nothing towards public awareness. And, if their demands were met then mass starvation and the end of this planet would be assured.

The people who are both increasing public awareness and understanding as well as making positive steps to combat planet collapse are the scientists and technologists that are developing means of producing more and more power from renewable resources and designing machinery that is used on homes and factories that use less fuel, people developing techniques to make houses better insulated.

The UK has cut greenhouse gas emissions by 41% since 1990. eciu.net/analysis/briefings/uk-energy-policies-and-prices/uk-energy-and-emissions The power sector has cut emissions by 65% through replacing coal-fired generators www.energy-uk.org.uk/insights/electricity-generation/ and overall we are consuming less energy than in 1998 [[www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/ukenergyhowmuchwhattypeandwherefrom/2016-08-15}]

What contribution to these major reductions in emissions and development of the technology that enables this have any of puerile prats with their toddler tantrums made? They are incapable of even producing a coherent plan of how they think their demands could be met in their time scales. without bringing the country to a complete halt and plunging it into a complete economic breakdown with hospitals ceasing to operate, people starving in the streets with a complete breakdown of public order.

I chatted to someone yesterday who tried, unsuccessfully, to explain quantum physics to me! There is so much scientific stuff going on that we don’t know about. It gave me hope for the future of the planet if people can pool their knowledge and work together. He said that, because of AI technology there’s talk of a worldwide National wage because people will be redundant in a way not seen since the Industrial Revolution.

Katie59

Norah

Katie59 no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

It's a bit like the garden. We don't use much fertiliser, none most of the time. Our gardens are glorious! Tomatoes are plentiful.

However, I save banana skins, grind them in water and douse some plants. I spray washingup liquid 2 t in a jug of water on roses - for aphids. I dump coffee grounds around 100s of azaleas, tea leaf on hydrangeas. Etc.

This is the problem you think that compost in garden situation can be repeated on a commercial scale to grow enough food. Before chemical fertilizers were used the crop yields were about 1/4 of todays yields, which is fine if you have a small population. To feeding the global population today is not going to be happen with organic methods

I can only assume you're not a commercial grower who rotates.

Thank you for your opinion.

Norah

Katie59

Norah

Katie59 no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

It's a bit like the garden. We don't use much fertiliser, none most of the time. Our gardens are glorious! Tomatoes are plentiful.

However, I save banana skins, grind them in water and douse some plants. I spray washingup liquid 2 t in a jug of water on roses - for aphids. I dump coffee grounds around 100s of azaleas, tea leaf on hydrangeas. Etc.

This is the problem you think that compost in garden situation can be repeated on a commercial scale to grow enough food. Before chemical fertilizers were used the crop yields were about 1/4 of todays yields, which is fine if you have a small population. To feeding the global population today is not going to be happen with organic methods

I can only assume you're not a commercial grower who rotates.

Thank you for your opinion.

Do you by any chance have any links to commercial growers who use crop rotation without using some organic manure and grow protein-rich crops to fulfil all dietary needs?

The animal-rights zealots who snatched three lambs from the Royal Sandringham estate are facing demands to disclose where they are being held, amid serious concerns for their welfare.

three women are on police bail.

Serious concerns they aren't being dished up with a nice dollop of mint sauce right now?

Near farmers raise their crops in rotation - sugar beets, onions, grains, beans, potatoes - organically. Organic sustainable farming, to my knowledge, never claimed to overly protein dense, apart from legumes/ lentils?

Soya, legumes, nuts, seeds, quinoa, lentils, beans - all exist as organic products/ food stuffs - available to purchase.

Many near farms are organic, not all the growers are all organic - yet.

www.eastsuffolkproduce.co.uk/

JamesFoskettFarms

farming farm products

Organic farmers use animal manure as fertiliser. Organic farmers are not vegan, many rely on a mixed arable and animal regime to keep the soil fertile.

There was a slip in my previous post. I meant animal not organic.

Norah Soya cannot be grown on a commercial scale in the UK. Well-meaning vegans eating quinoa have forced peasants in the Andes into starvation because they can no longer afford a staple crop. Without meat and dairy, the UK couldn't produce enough protein and fat, so we would need to rely on imports and air miles.

Some of the poorest people on earth rely on animal agriculture for survival. The land they farm is too barren for crops, so they rely on a few animals for meat, milk/yoghurt and eggs. If they are lucky enough to have sheep, they can sell the wool.

Much of the land surrounding where I live is chalk, as is a band across southern England. Yields would be much lower without the addition of animal fertiliser, which has been part of the rotation system for hundreds of years.

What about the land currently grazed by sheep and goats, on which almost nothing except grass will grow?

If everybody in the world were to become vegan, there would have to be a massive shift against current practices. The world's population has never been vegan within any timespan which can be studied.

Norah People couldn't live healthily solely from the products of that farm.

Incidentally, the four crop system was introduced, so that animals became part of the rotation and could be over-wintered.

Thanks, growstuff, for your informed contributions to the thread.

I've never advocated for everyone to become vegan. I merely point out sustainable, organic farming exists in the UK. Beans, lentils, nuts, quinoa can provide protein - not all UK based.

If people like meat, perhaps chickens are an alternative to beef - lower carbon footprint. Healthier in terms of fat and calories. Sustainable free rage chicken farming exists.

Vegetarian/ vegan and organic / sustainability can work together. People are not forced to eat 'ready meals' (vegan or not) full of non-organic or chemicals. Just does not have to happen.

Organic farmers are indeed not necessarily vegan - has never been argued.

Sustainable organic farming includes livestock. Pasture-only raised cattle, like those on Knepp Farm and on other farms using unimproved pasture, with the only supplementary feeding coming from on-farm hay are environmentally neutral.

The carbon footprint of grass farms is significantly lower than that of farms where cereal crops are grown to feed animals. Grassland helps capture and store carbon so less is released into the air to harm the atmosphere. Grazing animals return nutrients and organic matter back to the ground as they deposit their dung, ensuring the soil remains healthy and fertile.

Callistemon21

Thanks, growstuff, for your informed contributions to the thread.

I'd like to be more informed .

A friend of mine is a commercial market gardener (the one who provides me with veg for most of the year).

He really knows his stuff and writes for gardening magazines and academic papers, so I assume he is some kind of expert. All his growing is organic, he's passionate about the environment and is more or less a veggie himself.

He's the organiser of a community allotment and has his own business setting up allotments for wealthy people who want to live "The Good Life". None of his projects make money - the community allotment relies on a grant from the council and the wealthy customers pay for their own gardens.

He doesn't grow many "normal" crops - most of it consists of unusual cultivars, loved by foodies. He reckons it's just not worth growing mainstream veggies. Consequently, the veg I get from him is always organic and I sometimes have some weird stuff, which I'd pay a fortune for in a restaurant. (I also get veg from my Friday free hand out).

I've had many discussions with him about the sustainability of food and he would agree that the way he gardens couldn't be upscaled for commercial purposes, especially in different areas of the world with different climate and soil conditions.

We can all do our bit, eg, eliminate waste, eat locally and seasonally (which means avoiding soy and quinoa), eat less beef (although that also means less milk/yoghurt, which is a staple for many people), treat our animals better, have fewer children, etc. but we're omnivores and that's how we've evolved.

PS. My friend is the "informed" one - I'm just repeating what he's told me over the years.

PPS. As I mentioned on another thread, one of my current interests is 18th and 19th century farming and rural life (which includes changes in crop rotation - especially turnips ).

but we're omnivores and that's how we've evolved

Yes, we did.
We all have a choice too, I hope.

The carbon footprint of grass farms is significantly lower than that of farms where cereal crops are grown to feed animals. Grassland helps capture and store carbon so less is released into the air to harm the atmosphere. Grazing animals return nutrients and organic matter back to the ground as they deposit their dung, ensuring the soil remains healthy and fertile.

It's amazing how much carbon grass can store.

Yes, we're lucky in a developed country that we do have a choice - a vast choice. If we were fighting to survive, we'd probably eat anything.

I don't know that much about grazing lands, but I do know that farmers have developed a harmonious eco-system over the years and have farmed like that for centuries. Much grazing land just couldn't sustain arable farming, so animals such as sheep and goats do a wonderful job. Somehow or other, I don't think Australia will be swapping sheep for cabbages any time soon!

Somehow or other, I don't think Australia will be swapping sheep for cabbages any time soon!

Cattle stations are huge too, but some farms do grow cabbages!! There are thousands of smaller fruit and vegetables farms which grow millions of tonnes of produce, some of which is exported.

And vineyards 🍷 of course!