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VioletSky

Mollygo

Feminist- an advocate of women’s (AHF) rights on the basis of equality of the sexes.

There are many who consider themselves feminists but feel they need a qualifying adjective such as intersectional or even intersexual before the word feminist.

This usually means they don’t advocate women’s rights on the basis of equality of the sexes, but often advocate anything which goes against female rights if it benefits males.

These are better known as misogynistic feminists.

So does everyone agree with this too then?

Yes, 1,000 % 👏👏👏

Am I alone in losing the will to live, or at least carry on with this tortuous polarised ‘debate’. No surprises here, I’m in support of comments from diamond, doodle, smiles, molly and others and totally fed up with sanctimonious, superior, sneery comments from glory - supported by Violet.

I’m going slightly off piste as ever but - what’s wrong with so called white middle class wimin? Most of us in my Wimin’s groups here in the north west would have grandparents working in mills from age 8-10, leaving part time school around 11. They did 12 hour shifts, went hungry when the mills were closed or on half time. Their children dragged themselves into work ‘that meant your hands were clean’. The next generation, my lot, stayed at school ‘becsuse that way you get better jobs’. Some of us even went to university or the poly. How proud our grandparents were.
We weren’t homophobic or racist or smug. We were keen for knowledge and liberal.
Sorry I’m ranting but I’m so fed up with generations of strong women, like my grannie, my mum and dare I say me and my daughters being dismissed as smug racists who don’t care about trans people. It’s no sense and offensive no sense to boot

Allegation of misogyny.
Well IMO these will do for a start as they have been said or claimed.

Putting male rights before female rights e.g. by saying that although female spaces are protected, it’s up to females to challenge any males, who appear in those spaces.

Or not condemning the deceit practised by males entering female spaces, jobs, etc.

Or by insisting that TWAW, using the word women to mean what a male decided it should mean, when Trans Women Are Transwomen or Transwomen are male.

Or, as I well remember it has been said by some claiming to be feminists, that females should accept a TW when they have asked for a female attendant.

As for bringing racism in, failing other lines of attack, Glorianny did that, and this quote
I have said that if you believe that knowing the links between black women and intersectional feminism you are being racist.
Doesn’t make sense if I don’t know the link and also rather crudely implies that feminists other than IF are racist.

Mollygo

And I have posted that IMO, any feminist (whatever label they choose to add) or male (whatever label they choose to adopt), or TRA, who chooses repudiate female rights or to put male rights before female rights is showing misogyny, defined as
^dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

So you have said Intersectional feminists are misogynistic.
You are therefore either ignorant of the roots of intersectional feminism and its links with black women, or you do not care about those women..
By all means question their beliefs
By all means challenge their concepts.
But do so without making unfounded and unjustified insults.
Using such language only shows how some will discriminate not only against transwomen but against all women. Calling other women names because you disagree with them is not feminist
Rights are not some sort of league table.

Mollygo

Namsnanny

I just find it humorous/ironic/strange, that someone has the power to deduce a racist by their indirect comments, but not the ability to see a penis and think ahh that's a man.
Thanks to the demand for identification by gender, a nurse could well be faced with that issue.🤣🤣

Glorianny deduced that all white feminists are racist by her comments except IF. The one is no more true than the other.

I’m saying straight out that any sort of feminist who does not put the rights of females before the rights of males is doing the same misogynistic practices that some males and all ill intentioned TW and TRA feel they have the right to do.

Thank you Dickens for your post at 16:18.

I’m saying straight out that any sort of feminist who does not put the rights of females before the rights of males is doing the same misogynistic practices that some males and all ill intentioned TW and TRA feel they have the right to do.

Further, I personally do not accept any terminology that defines women in relation to trans women, a small % of the population - as though this is the norm, and we have to be defined by it.

In the 2021 Census, the question “Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?”.

Overall, 45.7 million (94.0% of the population aged 16 years and over) answered the question.

In total, 45.4 million (93.5%) answered “Yes” and 262,000 (0.5%) answered “No”.

The remaining 2.9 million (6.0%) did not answer the question.

I believe trans women are trans women, a minority... maybe a growing minority, but still a minority, who deserve recognition as a demographic, with the same rights, protections and freedoms as any other group of human beings.

And I'm not willing personally (others might disagree) to be assimilated into the world of new labels which are effectively eradicating the very concept of "woman"... I never was a "birthing person" or "chest feeder". This inclusiveness is being incorporated at the expense of women; everyone is getting a label attached to their being to make them legitimate, and the label that has served for millennia, "woman", is being effectively scrapped because a minority insists it doesn't include them.

There is nothing shameful, is there, about being labelled a trans woman? If that is how one identifies, why can't it be used as a legitimate label - it is a legitimate status.

IFs or others might - or might not bother - to dispute my opinion. Their right. The opposition make no bones about their views and sometimes quite vehemently posit their opinion. I'm indulging the same right.

Iam64

Am I alone in losing the will to live, or at least carry on with this tortuous polarised ‘debate’. No surprises here, I’m in support of comments from diamond, doodle, smiles, molly and others and totally fed up with sanctimonious, superior, sneery comments from glory - supported by Violet.

I’m going slightly off piste as ever but - what’s wrong with so called white middle class wimin? Most of us in my Wimin’s groups here in the north west would have grandparents working in mills from age 8-10, leaving part time school around 11. They did 12 hour shifts, went hungry when the mills were closed or on half time. Their children dragged themselves into work ‘that meant your hands were clean’. The next generation, my lot, stayed at school ‘becsuse that way you get better jobs’. Some of us even went to university or the poly. How proud our grandparents were.
We weren’t homophobic or racist or smug. We were keen for knowledge and liberal.
Sorry I’m ranting but I’m so fed up with generations of strong women, like my grannie, my mum and dare I say me and my daughters being dismissed as smug racists who don’t care about trans people. It’s no sense and offensive no sense to boot

If it's sanctimonious to recognise that there are levels of oppression and of discrimination, I'm sorry, but I can't help it.
And yes working class women did and still do experience more oppression than middle class women. That's one of the areas addressed by intersectional feminism.
No one has said you are racist, or that you don't care about transpeople
On the other hand I have been told I'm misogynistic because I'm a intersectional feminist.
That's discrimination.

One-size-fits-all feminism is to intersectional feminism what #AllLivesMatter is to #BlackLivesMatter. The former’s attempt at inclusiveness can actually erase the latter’s acknowledgment of a unique issue that disproportionately affects a specific group of people.

So you have said Intersectional feminists are misogynistic.
No I haven’t, unless they do the things I mentioned.
You brought in the racism and granted, I didn’t know that link.
However, and this is important, .
My knowledge of what IF are like is how you and VS portray them.
You do at least 2 of the things I mentioned and possibly all three, which put the rights of females second to the rights of males.

Are you saying that all intersectional feminists think and act like you do?

If not, you should say that, so we are not given the wrong impression of all IF.

No Iam you are not alone in losing the will to live, but as long as those on these threads who do not feel the need to identify as IF, because being a feminist is enough, are being misrepresented, having what they post twisted and being accused of posting things they haven't, I'm prepared to stay the course.

Intersectional feminism exists primarily for the inclusion of women of colour, different sexualities, different religions and different disabilities because intersectional feminism recognizes that their experience of womanhood is not the same as straight, white, able women assigned female at birth

Intersectional feminism seeks to challenge racism, homophobia, transphobia, anti religious views and disability discrimination against all it's members

Yes we include trans women in our numbers because other kinds of feminism, refuse to accept trans women's identity, primarily because they believe a trans woman's experience is not the same as their own.

Intersectional feminism recognizes the real differences between the experiences of all women and the ways that often straight white males have been oppressing women for hundreds of years sometimes with the help of racist, religionist, homophobic, transphobic, entitled able women

Calling intersectional feminism mysoginist is like stating that the sun is the moon.

It's also quite a bad thing to call anyone and in many ways worse than calling someone racist or homophobic etc and I think you all know that

But as much as all respect has now been lost for many of you, I can gladly say that I don't have to live with your views or behaviour... Ultimately you have to live with that... I will take safe refuge in the fact that I don't know a single woman who would disagree with me outside of this space that is not a safe space for women at all.

Well said Iam64 and Mollygo.

I sometimes think I have woken up in another world like ‘His Dark Materials’ by Philip Pullman where this similar but also very different world has evolved, such as two different Oxfords.

Where fair debate in Universities is either banned, or overtaken by activists gluing themselves to the floor (I would have left the student there over night, like they have in Germany).

Where people who used to be men must be called transwomen and where pronouns have taken on a different form, where my Women’s Institute no long just accepts natal women and the natal women are told to leave it they don’t like it !!

Where young impressionable youngsters feel the need to transition, where women’s sports events have been infiltrated by people who were once men and who are stronger and therefore have an advantage.

Please keep my beloved Tennis to natal males and females and if need by another category for transpeople, who I have nothing against.

Where some MPs have difficulty in describing a woman and where transwomen can retain their male parts and not be questioned about it.

I am just hoping my two grandsons are not indoctrinated at their school with regard to their sex/gender, when they should be learning and expanding their minds.

Have I woken up from a terrible dream and come back to my normality, I suspect that will never happen now.

This is another reality. I despair.

Glorianny, Molly has posted that any feminist who does the things she mentioned are misogynistic, not just IF feminists.

Now I can see that that doesn't fit with your argument but continuing to ascribe to a poster something they haven't said is just a waste of everyone's time and TBH, is not presenting a very favourable picture of IF.

Mollygo

^Feminist- an advocate of women’s (AHF) rights on the basis of equality of the sexes.^

There are many who consider themselves feminists but feel they need a qualifying adjective such as intersectional or even intersexual before the word feminist.

This usually means they don’t advocate women’s rights on the basis of equality of the sexes, but often advocate anything which goes against female rights if it benefits males.

These are better known as misogynistic feminists.

Let's remember the comment actually being discussed, it is very clear

Glorianny, you can quote other people's words as much as you like, and talk about different types of feminism in terms of theory as much as you like, but it doesn't alter the fact that transwomen are not women, and never will be.

It really is as simple as that, and all the superiority and sneering at those who say it won't change the reality.

I couldn't give a fig about intersectional or any other doctrine of feminism - as I said upthread, my thoughts are my own, and I don't need other people's theories to back them up. This board is for discussion between people with an interest in the subject, not an exam where you lose points for getting theories mixed up. It is better if people back up statements with figures, but theoretical 'my feminism is better than your feminism' is irrelevant to this discussion, which started about freedom of speech and has morphed into a discussion of whether TRAs have the right to close down debate on 'trans issues'.

You've all lost this debate in spectacular fashion and no amount of changing the narrative will hide the truth

I despair for women, I really do, if this continues

I'm going to go think about something else

VS
But as much as all respect has now been lost for many of you . . .
Not a problem for me. I don’t need your respect or value respect from you because of what you say.
It may be that others feel differently.
I skim read your post.
Your last paragraph doesn’t make sense and certainly doesn’t offer protection to females.

VioletSky

You've all lost this debate in spectacular fashion and no amount of changing the narrative will hide the truth

I despair for women, I really do, if this continues

I'm going to go think about something else

I despair for women when there are other women out there and on this thread insisting that a person born a man can become a woman.

This is a complete fallacy, an impossibility and continuing this nonsense makes them complicit in men gaining access to women only spaces and sports categories.

if it’s sanctimonious to recognise that there are different levels of discrimination I’m sorry I can’t help it

Claiming the moral high ground again glory. My maternal gran put into service age 11 ran away from the midlands, got herself to the northwest where she and her 10 year old sister rented a room and got taken on at the mill. I’m not suggesting their lives were as harsh as black slaves picking the cotton my ancestors worked in the Lancashire cotton mills. Their lives were harsh though and they wanted better for us. I find your ability to dismiss the legacy of those women offensive. They lived oppression and discrimination and that’s in my dna.

GrannyGravy13

VioletSky

You've all lost this debate in spectacular fashion and no amount of changing the narrative will hide the truth

I despair for women, I really do, if this continues

I'm going to go think about something else

I despair for women when there are other women out there and on this thread insisting that a person born a man can become a woman.

This is a complete fallacy, an impossibility and continuing this nonsense makes them complicit in men gaining access to women only spaces and sports categories.

You’ve all lost this debate in spectacular fashion.

Says ego Violet ? Who set you up as judge and jury

A trans woman's experience of life isn't the same as mine, anymore than my experience of life is the same as theirs VS.

I have no idea what these other types of feminism are that do not accept trans women's identity; perhaps you could be specific. The feminism of which I am a member, and proud to be so does accept their identity but does not accept that they are women and as such should avail themselves of the facilities that are for women.

It also encompasses everything you've referred too in your 1st, 2nd and 3rd paragraph.

Giving examples of behaviour that one considers to be misogynist is not "like stating that the sun is the moon" especially as some of those behaviours have been displayed by some IF's and saying so is not saying that (all) IF's are misogynists.

I don't know if you or Glorianny read Dickinson's post earlier, but you should and if you have read it and still can't see the disservice you're doing to intersectional feminism, maybe you should read it again.

Iam64. It’s just the same old same old.

I

Smileless2012 👏👏👏

You've all lost this debate in spectacular fashion thanks for the laugh VS.

Iam64, GrannyGravy13
VS
You’ve all lost this debate in spectacular fashion.
In whose opinion VS?

That should have been 1st, 2nd and 4th paragraph not 3rd.

It's also quite a bad thing to call anyone and in many ways worse than calling someone racist or homophobic etc and I think you all know that
really VioletSky misogynist is worse than rascist or homophobic? Strange how misogyny isn't a hate crime category or even a non crime hate incident, whereas the other two are. As the vast majority of us on this thread aren't any of those things it doesn't really matter their pecking order.