Yet another MP, ignorant about biology.

Oh and consent is a massive part of this for me. So girls should not be told that their consent is dependent on the feelings of men.

Galaxy

I am very involved in teaching children to respect their own bodies thanks. It why I supported the womens groups who pointed out that telling children their bodies were wrong was a terrible approach.

Precisely. This is a much bigger problem than fighting for safe spaces for women.

Sorry I didn't phrase that very well.

Herefornow

My point is, alot of you are spending a great deal of time trying to devise and enforce the perfect set of rules for keeping men (and therefore by various definitions, though not my own, transwomen) out of women's spaces to avoid being raped.

This is a noble aim, but I think its actually an impossible aim to achieve by just instigating some supposedly foolproof set of rules. Rapists find ways to rape. Its awful. Truly horrifying. But what about improving conviction rates? What about teaching kids to respect their own and each others bodies?

I am definitely not trying to devise a perfect set of rules. In spite of the constant demands from Glorianny that women should tell her how the situation should be policed, I maintain that it is not for me to decide, but a combination of the people who want to use safe facilities meant for the opposite sex (of all kinds, not just toilets) and the police or lawmakers, who are employed to make and enforce laws.

There needs to be only one rule - where women are vulnerable because of being ill, undressed or otherwise incapacitated (or where their religion or culture determines it), we should have spaces where men do not enter. Easy, really. No mental effort required.

I got what you meant namsnanny I think

Herefornow
As Smileless2012 says it isn’t just about ‘toilet segregation’.
The concerns are more far-reaching than that. But you can see that for some posters, female rights that have already been fought for and won, are dismissed when they interfere with males wanting to avail themselves of those rights.
Instead of addressing the dishonesty of males, Women (and unlike some posters, by that word I mean Adult Human Females,) are told that they should challenge males who are in female safe spaces (not just toilets) and who make it clearly obvious that they are male. They are told that, should they ask for a female attendant for an intimate examination, they are transphobic if a TW turns up and they object.
Smileless2012 has already mentioned the other attempts to eradicate the truthful meaning of the word woman.

So,
substandard women's (AHF) health care. Is that being helped by the waste of time trying to relabel females or allow males to confuse the issue of the treatment they need.
Maternity discrimination? I don’t know exactly what you mean by that.
But again it isn’t helped by men claiming they are pregnant or that they need treatment for their menstrual cramps.

Crippling childcare costs! Absolutely! But that should not be a solely female concern.

OK, if a transwoman showed up to do an exam when the patient preferred a lifelong woman, this is an issue. I'm not convinced it's the biggest issue in women's health care by a longshot though, personally i would just say "no, find another" with any person i wasnt comfortable examining me. I understand not everyone feels assertive enough to do this, which is an issue, but what about pcos, endometriosis, improper menopausal care, systemic medical gaslighting (you dont have a brain tumour ma'am you're just anxious), the fact that the pill has barely been updated for 6 decades?

Maternity discrimination = women losing their jobs erroneously because they are pregnant etc

Crippling childcare costs are a woman's concern because the vast majority of the time it is the lower paid earner (statistically this is a woman in a family) is the one who ends up dropping to part time hours to look after the children because childcare is so extortionate. This then cripples mum's career prospects because part times are statistically less likely to be afforded opportunities to demonstrate higher competence than their main job role.

The fact that I have to explain these things to a womens rights activist is flabbergasting to me.

I despair. Am I living in the land of the emperor’s new clothes, where we are told that biological males who transition are women, when they patently aren’t. They still have a male brain.

My WI has allowed transwomen into this ‘women only’ organisation without a vote from the members. And to make things worse they don’t have to have transitioned they can just bowl up in a dress say they are a woman and we can’t do anything about it. I am horrified. 😳

PS I feel sorry for lesbians who are castigated for not wanting sex with a transwoman because they were once a man.

You can start another thread about any of those things hereandnow if you believe the posters on Gransnet need educating about any of them.

The subject and concerns in this thread are different.

I’m afraid your posts are awfully reminiscent of the diversionary tactics employed by well known posters on this topic.
I for one won’t be distracted from the central issue of male control over female lives.

I honestly despair. Distracted indeed.

Not going to start other threads then?

I'm not the one claiming to be a superfeminist out to save womankind from all the evils of progressive society, so no, but good to see your true colours mind.

And now we descend into insults.

Gosh this all sounds so familiar.

Nice try.

Herefornow said OK, if a transwoman showed up to do an exam when the patient preferred a lifelong woman, this is an issue. I'm not convinced it's the biggest issue in women's health care by a longshot though, personally i would just say "no, find another" with any person i wasnt comfortable examining me. I understand not everyone feels assertive enough to do this, which is an issue,

That is exactly what happened to a friend who had been raped. A tall, bearded, deep-voiced transwoman nurse in a dress arrived to do a test on her and got exceedingly nasty when friend refused to be seen by the nurse. Luckily, although my friend was traumatised, she was assertive enough to complain, her complaint was upheld and made the Sunday papers at the time.

Why AHF’s should have to endure that kind of treatment simply to make men better about themselves is beyond me. And most of us can care about more than thing at a time, as well.

herefornow
Crippling childcare costs are a woman's concern
I am horrified that you are still endorsing the fact that women lose money to do child care.

You are thus excusing men from taking responsibility for child care AND excusing them from challenging the government over the cost of child care AND excusing them for supporting women’s fight for better pay.

Lathyrus

I’m afraid your posts are awfully reminiscent of the diversionary tactics employed by well known posters on this topic.

Lathyrus,
the response that followed your post was even more reminiscent of those diversionary tactics you mention.

NanKate you’ve put it well. Emporers new clothes sums it up. Just because some one tries to tell me what to think as a way justifying their inclinations doesn’t change my opinion, No one should face discrimination, but you are born either man or woman. Men that transition to a woman, still look like a man despite the way they dress, in sport they have an unfair advantage. If you have to have surgery and chemicals to be a certain sex it says it all, without it they would look the sex they were born and are.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202306/medium-734397-20230616-004924.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202306/medium-873674-screenshot-20230616-005302.png

I wonder if this is a Gerald Ratner moment for Fraser Longden of Wickes.

Herefornow has been around for a while and isn't anyone else as far as I am aware.

New low

And yes the fact that rape prosecutions are only 1% in this country is shocking and the obvious outcome of this issue is that men who rape know they have a good chance of getting away with it. Yet the merry-go-round must continue and trans women must be thrown under all the buses

Thank you Allsorts for your comment.

It’s become a mad world where a regular male blood donor was turned away because he wouldn’t confirm that he wasn’t pregnant!

Putin has persuaded millions of Russians that Ukraine started the war, another example of the Emperor’s new clothes.

I think I am living in a dystopian universe and I see no way out of it.

They don't do different forms for different genders or even ages

Just 1 form

Tick the boxes

Walking away from saving someone's life is morally bankrupt if ticking a box got in the way

But I guess that will stick it to trans people right?

How dare you accuse a regular blood donor of being morally bankrupt! They turned him away, he didn't 'walk away'. My dad was a regular blood donor until he got too old, he NEVER had to confirm he wasn't pregnant, ludicrous questions like that weren't part of the procedure.

VS I see you’re translating what is said into what you want it to say again.
Where does it say on this thread, that one poster is another?

To simplify:

reminiscent

adjective: tending to remind one of something.

You’re absolutely right. Refusing to tick a box in order to save a life is morally bankrupt.

OK, if a transwoman showed up to do an exam when the patient preferred a lifelong woman, this is an issue. I'm not convinced it's the biggest issue in women's health care by a longshot though, personally i would just say "no, find another" with any person i wasnt comfortable examining me. I understand not everyone feels assertive enough to do this, which is an issue
Ok, so as you agree, not everyone is as 'assertive' as you. Why should there be a need for someone who may already be feeling scared, anxious, vulnerable and who may be in pain, have to summon up courage that may not come naturally to them in order to have the person examining them be the sex they prefer - or just to know whether they are being examined by a male or female-bodied person? Why is that not a right? You are very dismissive of people who do not share your personality traits - you would 'just' say 'find another' suggests zero empathy for your fellow women (you are a woman?)

but what about pcos, endometriosis, improper menopausal care, systemic medical gaslighting (you dont have a brain tumour ma'am you're just anxious), the fact that the pill has barely been updated for 6 decades?
So let's forget about cruelty to children, shall we? Or cancer research? Or political shenanigans? If you can only be concerned about one thing at a time - which of the things on your list are you going to concentrate on whilst the others get ignored? the rest of us will doubtless continue to be concerned about several things simultaneously.

Maternity discrimination = women losing their jobs erroneously because they are pregnant etc
More of the same. Yes, those things are wrong, but they and concern over women's rights in other areas are not mutually exclusive. A previous poster used to mention 'pregnant and screwed' a lot. Maybe you could look them up and see if there is anything you can do to help them, if that is a particular concern of yours. Of course if you take the line that 'the law is already in place to protect those women' (as is often mentioned when discussing entry to what used to be women's spaces) there may be no need to worry.

Crippling childcare costs are a woman's concern because the vast majority of the time it is the lower paid earner (statistically this is a woman in a family) is the one who ends up dropping to part time hours to look after the children because childcare is so extortionate. This then cripples mum's career prospects because part times are statistically less likely to be afforded opportunities to demonstrate higher competence than their main job role.
Why do you feel the need to point this out to a group of women who have lived through decades of discrimination and have fought hard to get equal rights in the workplace and elsewhere? Do you think you have special insights into things that have somehow passed the rest of us by? I agree Molly when she said that this sense of superiority is very reminiscent of other posters on this 'side' of the debate - I'm not saying you are passing yourself off as someone else (and neither did Molly) - just that the attitude is depressingly familiar.

The fact that I have to explain these things to a womens rights activist is flabbergasting to me.
Oh, you can ungast your flabber forthwith. Honestly, there is no need for concern. I am 100% confident that everyone on this thread (whether or not they identify as a 'women's rights activist') is fully aware of all the injustices you point out. It's just that we are capable of holding several things at a time in our pretty little heads.

Isn't it awful that as well as facing all of the issues that Herefornow has referred too, women are also having to fight for the right to protect their identity as women.

With regard to one form, have 3 boxes for each question, 'yes', no or 'not applicable'. Not rocket science is it.

Not a "New low" but the same old same old, when posters contributions are twisted and false accusations are made.