Excellent article on economic migrants from genuine refugee

This isnt "chat", it belongs in the news and politics thread. Above your title it says, " Feel free to have your say and chat about your day, but please leave any arguments at the door"

Yes it was an excellent article.

So will all high minded people who pillory and look down on the Daily Mail now take a step back ? It looked like a very good news article to me. I don’t read that particular newspaper as it is British but I agree with that particular article , a good one.

It is a good article and well worth reading (even for those who don't normally read the mail!). Primrose53 could you ask for it to be moved to the News & Politics section as it is interesting and would probably get more attention there.

All I can say is that you lot are easily impressed.

It is not acceptable to blame the migrants for the failings in our "processing" system. It is not an easy challenge, and the people-traffickers are scum, but we have no choice but to rise to this challenge, as are many other western countries. There is no easy answer, but the priority must be humanity and decency. Every incoming migrant is a fellow human being.

Many British people have sought what they see as better lives abroad and they are entitled to do this - they do not have to be under threat of death or torture. They do of course have to go through the legal processes in the country they choose. Economic or lifestyle migration is not of itself a crime in either direction.

Any actions that further the humanity of our laws in this area are to be welcomed.

MaizieD

All I can say is that you lot are easily impressed.

My thoughts exactly. Not enough critical thought.

I have read the article, twice in fact which seems to me to be a diatribe against the House of Lords. He talks about genuine refugees but fails to say that there is no way for the genuine refugee to enter the country, so the refugees from countries such as Afghanistan, Syria , who are often have much to offer and are very well educated are left in limbo.
I was more interested listening to how Germany, where they have many more immigrants, has been glad to use the talents of these people to fill their gaps.

You two would say that wouldn't you?

To be expected, good job it was moved here

M0nica

You two would say that wouldn't you?

Yes of course - do you disagree?

Some people are so short sighted you have no idea how many future doctors, dentists solicitors, surgeons are amongst the so called illegals you have to have money to pay the boat rates
If you were desperate wouldn’t you try anything to get your family to safety Have you looked at the places that are being lived in in Sudan while people are fleeing war and destruction
And meanwhile waiting list for operations are getting longer and people pull out their own teeth and fruit rots in fields
🙄

I think you're the one being short sighted and naive Bluebelle! We have no idea who these people are, and if they can lie about their age, they can lie about their professions!

How are such professional people able to get into this country when there is no legal route.?
I see Germany which has many more immigrants are glad to give them a chance to work where workers are needed.
We should face up to the fact that the Tory policy is all to get favour from the red wall in the hope of keeping seats there.

I can’t do links so I’ve copied this out in full.

Minority ethnic politicians are pushing harsh immigration policies – why representation doesn’t always mean racial justice

Authors: Neema Begum - Nottingham
Michael Bankole - Kings College
Rima Saini - Middlesex

There’s no question that British politics is becoming more diverse. From only four minority ethnic MPs elected in 1987, now 67 MPs are from a minority ethnic background.

The Scottish first minister, Humza Yousaf, recently became the first minority ethnic leader of a devolved government and the first Muslim to lead a major UK party. Yousaf follows a number of historic firsts: a Muslim mayor of London (Sadiq Khan), the first British Asian UK prime minister (Rishi Sunak), and the first female minority ethnic home secretary (Priti Patel) succeeded by another minority ethnic woman, (Suella Braverman).

People often assume that if a person in power is an ethnic minority, they will advocate more strongly for minority ethnic communities. But, as our research shows, ethnic diversity in government is not a guarantee of racial justice.

Some minority ethnic politicians align themselves with a “model minority” archetype, attributing their success to quintessentially British, conservative values of hard work and entrepreneurship. This was an oft-repeated message in the 2022 Conservative leadership campaign, the most racially diverse in history.

Minority ethnic politicians’ presence in the senior echelons of UK politics is a symbol of diversity and social progressiveness. This, ironically, allows these government ministers to justify policies that are cruel to immigrants, and ignore legitimate concerns of minority ethnic citizens.

Badenoch has rebuffed calls for more teaching of black history in schools. A 2020 report from the race equality thinktank the Runnymede Trust said that more diversity in what children are taught is key to addressing the racism that is “deeply embedded” in Britain’s schools.

Speaking about perpetrators of child sexual exploitation, Braverman claimed grooming gangs are “almost all British Pakistani men”. This was despite the government’s own evidence to the contrary. She was flanked by Sunak suggesting that “political correctness” and “cultural sensitivities” were getting in the way of stamping grooming gangs out.

As home secretary, Priti Patel criticised Black Lives Matter protesters in 2020, and described England’s footballers taking the knee – a widely-supported symbol of anti-racist activism – as “gesture politics”.

Patel has implied that as a victim of racism herself, she – and the government – understand racial inequality. Her sidelining of others’ very real experiences of racism is seemingly permissible, given Patel’s minority ethnic identity.

Anti-immigration sentiment

There are also examples of minority ethnic ministers pushing policies that actively stigmatise and target vulnerable minority groups.

The illegal migration bill is the latest example of this. As post-racial gatekeepers, politicians like Braverman give legitimacy to hard-right views on race and immigration. At the same time, they prop up the line that immigration is no longer about race.

At the Conservative Conference in 2022, Braverman said, “It’s not racist for anyone, ethnic minority or otherwise, to want to control our borders.” And yet she has likened refugee flows to an “invasion” and said that immigration threatens the UK’s “national character”.

Notably, the government’s immigration policies of recent years are being formulated and championed by politicians who are themselves the children or grandchildren of immigrants. Sunak’s grandparents were among the Hindu and Sikh refugees who fled Punjab following the partition of India. Patel admitted that her own parents would not have been allowed into the UK under her immigration laws.

The illegal migration bill comes just a year after Patel led the passage of the Nationality and Borders Act. Both policies are designed to keep out outsiders, many of whom are black or brown. It is contradictory that the ministers responsible for these policies are descendants of immigrants themselves.

Immigration is still about race

Despite comments like Braverman’s, evidence shows that immigration is still very much linked to race and racism.

Many minority ethnic people – even those who are British-born or naturalised citizens – feel they are still targets of the immigration debate. Ethnic minorities are the worst affected by stringent immigration policies and stigmatised by anti-immigration language.

Perceptions of migrants in relation to worth and value continue to be influenced by class and race. The current system, which depends on a hierarchy of immigrants by “skill”, means mostly white, university-educated and English-speaking migrants are consistently viewed more favourably than black, Asian and Muslim migrants.

And public opinion is far warmer towards Ukrainian refugees compared with those also fleeing war in Afghanistan, Syria, Sudan and Somalia.

Minority ethnic voters also perceived racial undertones in the anti-immigrant language used by the Leave campaign during Brexit. But while most voted Remain, some minority ethnic Brexit voters supported Leave in opposition to immigration from eastern Europe.

As with minority ethnic politicians calling for harsh border policies, immigrant status or family history is no guarantee of liberal attitudes to immigration or asylum.

Of course, this analysis does not apply to every minority ethnic politician. It is heartening to see other Conservatives speaking out about the inflammatory anti-migrant climate. Mohammed Amin, a former chair of the Conservative Muslim Forum, described Braverman’s rhetoric as “disgusting”.

But it is important to remember that ethnic diversity is not racial justice, nor can it protect the government from challenges to its harmful policies. As Baroness Sayeeda Warsi noted: “Braverman’s own ethnic origin has shielded her from criticism for too long.”

WWM2 I do not know I haven't had time to read the article. I am having a rather busy day.

toscalily

It is a good article and well worth reading (even for those who don't normally read the mail!). Primrose53 could you ask for it to be moved to the News & Politics section as it is interesting and would probably get more attention there.

How do I do that please?

I don't for one minute believe migration is an either or situation, in a good or bad sense, like anything else there are massive nuanced variables and a multitude of outcomes both positive and negative with migrants, economic or otherwise. In many respects it is needed to help countries flourish. So of course migrants can be a massive benefit, look how wonderfully well the Ugandian Asians for example, adapted, thrived and benefited both our country and themselves. To that add a multitude of other people from different places around the world. No way is anyone going to tell me I'm a Little Englander, two thirds of my family are not of the indigenous population of this country and when they came here they stayed here and clearly they thought England was a place worth coming to, which is just as well because I wouldn't be here otherwise. My earliest school friends who I still retain are from families with two Irish parents, my first husband was a foreigner who came to England as a student. Both my husband and I have friends from different ethnic backgrounds, one of my longest standing friends of nearly 50 years, we met at work, is West Indian. Another close friend, and the only one I retained from pre and post natal days is Malaysian. Where I lived previously our next door neighbours were Iranian, the mum of the household eventually went back to Iran but told us we were the best neighbours she ever had, and the daughter of the house is one of my son's best friends.

Nevertheless, amongst the multitude of people who come across on the boats will not only be those who will be an asset to this country in whatever their field of expertise is, there will also be a criminal element. I read recently about a woman who was dragged into a park and raped by a man who had only come off a boat a few weeks before he carried out that attack. I have also read about people who have been murdered by an illegal immigrant, one was a seven year old girl who was scooting through a park when she was stabbed to death by an Albanian woman with mental health problems, who shouldn't have been here. Of course random attacks could be perpetuated by a British born and bred person which wouldn't have made it any better, but the point is in this case and some others it wasn't! and if the right checks had been put in place that little girl would still be here. It's not prejudice to want to know that we are not letting a criminal element in, or people with severe mental health problems to walk among us. All of this is also a massive issue in France, Holland, Germany, Italy and other European countries who have taken many migrants. I believe rows over asylum was one of the reasons that the Dutch Prime Minister, Mark Rutte resigned. The Netherlands is the most densely populated country in Europe and we come closely behind. I accept that whilst our country doesn't have a finite amount of space, there are large pockets of sparsely populated areas, but still most people want to pile into the somewhat beleaguered south east where there isn't always the infrastructure to support the numbers. I'm fairly new to the town we live in, now outside the M25, so far enough away from London, possibly not to experience the sheer weight of numbers from whence I came. It did quite shock me to learn that a fair number of the pupils in my new location, cannot get a senior school place and have to travel well outside the area, I thought that was more of a problem confined to London boroughs.

It's all very well being sniffy about the DM, sometimes indeed it warrants that, but amongst the dross they have been known to carry out some serious journalism and worthwhile articles, I think it is condescending to imply that to read it with a discerning eye still equates to being feeble brained should you even scan anything less than The Guardian. For example one such article in The DM was an in depth report on the mining of cobalt a component used in electric cars and how the children of the Democratic Republic of Congo are used to mine that mineral in Dickensian like conditions that is ruinous to their health.

Thank you to whoever moved this for me.👏👏

Having read the article my first thought is, had the Hungarian uprising happened now instead of in 1956, the 9 year old Frank Furedi would have found himself crossing the channel in a boat to reach the UK with the possibility of being sent to Rwanda. His family would have been travelling without the necessary permission to enter the UK legally and he would have already passed through a number of "safe" countries. Many of the refugees arriving on our shores by boat come from Afghanistan, Iran and other countries where there are highly repressive states. tbh I am struggling to see the difference except we no longer have a properly functioning way of processing refugees and separating them from economic migrants without permission to stay, who should be sent home. I think he is ranting against the House of Lords in an extremely odd way!

Well said Foxie. I felt that his diatribe against the Lords was over the top, but perhaps he has a reason.

BlueBelle

Some people are so short sighted you have no idea how many future doctors, dentists solicitors, surgeons are amongst the so called illegals you have to have money to pay the boat rates
If you were desperate wouldn’t you try anything to get your family to safety Have you looked at the places that are being lived in in Sudan while people are fleeing war and destruction
And meanwhile waiting list for operations are getting longer and people pull out their own teeth and fruit rots in fields
🙄

But they don’t! These fit young men leave their wives and kids behind to get on with things. It is very rare you see a child or a woman on a boat.

Why didn't Furedi's parents and their kids stay in Austria - a safe country? If they arrived on UK shores today they would have been assessed for Rwanda as having travelled through safe countries. Of course, they're white which might have affected the result. Where are the safe and legal routes for refugees? The article fails to explore that.

I think I'm always surprised when other people are surprised that amongst the large raft of different ethnically diverse and multi religious people that make up our population, that they wouldn't assume that those newcomers won't have just as many pluses and minuses as the indigenous population. It's often been mooted by high profile black people, that there is an expectation amongst Labour and the left that is where their natural allegiances should lie with an expectation that the left largely owns the black vote. Why? are these people a homogenised mass anymore than other sectors of the population, and even to think that is, imo somewhat insulting. I also wonder if you were of the opinion that people from different ethnic origins all have liberal views on a range of subjects, do you actually know any people from a different racial background? . When I briefly lived in South London there was a thriving black pentecostal community, they hold deeply conservative views on a whole gamut of issues, including gay marriage, as indeed would their Muslim counterparts. I know my black British friend, just like me, would admit to voting for both the two major political parties at different times and from our last meet up we both said we felt right now we wouldn't vote for either. Occasionally I have been really shocked by the views of some I have known from a different ethnic background, for example my Malaysian girlfriend who I met at ante natal, is ethnically Chinese and told me quite categorically that she couldn't be friends with a Muslim. her words "we don't get on with them where I come from, Penang, we the Chinese in Malaysia are being out bred and marginalised by them" she also went on to add that her mother till her dying day hated the Japanese, based on what they went through during the war. However, I don't think anything left me more gob smacked than this, from my Iranian neighbour, we often talked about Iran when she lived here. They were of Zoroastrian faith which I learned was the ancient religion of Persia and a persecuted minority, they fled during the Iranian Revolution after The Ayatollahs took over. I remember this conversation in particular when she told me how much she missed Iran and hoped to go back in her words "It's getting so much better over there now you can get designer labels such as Dolce and Gabbana" me "well surely it takes more than D&G to make somewhere an acceptable place to live, after all they still publicly execute people in all manner of horrible ways" her "yes but that only the lower classes" Good grief! Eventually, she went back to Iran, she'd separated from her Iranian husband who lived in Switzerland. Their daughter remained in the house, she had a live in boyfriend at the time, who was absolutely a top bloke, lovely person, really good job, South African mixed race, Iranian parents weren't happy about that at all, Haleh the daughter would say, "they're a bit old school" about him, not much! her mother even rang us up from Iran from time to time, she had our number, asking our opinion as to his character because he was mixed race , and he had to be spirited out of the house if they came over, because they didn't want to meet him. One of my sons brought a black girlfriend home when they were at uni together, didn't bother us, to me it's all about the person not the colour of their skin, that relationship fizzled out but she was as welcome as any other girlfriends that passed through my children's lives.