We’re rejoining the Horizon programme….

MayBee70

But it was never made clear at the time of the referendum just how disastrous voting leave would be if it resulted in us being excluded from things like Horizon. The first thing that happened was the medicines agency leaving this country; that’s gone fir good now. It still isn’t going to be as easy for EU scientists to work here but at least is a step in the right direction.

Yes, I thought losing the Medicines Agency was an absolute disaster.

A relative is involved in clinical trials at Oxford University. They are absolutely delighted with the news re Horizon. Many European research staff have left and recruiting expert scientists has proved very difficult since Brexit.

Urmstongran

This will doubtless delight the middle classes.
The working class not so much. Many don’t even register what Erasmus is - if you drive a van, are a plumber or painter and decorator it won’t even cross your mind.

How often do we hear or see people say that they were the first of their family to go to university? Everyday on GN there are people singing the praises of the children or grandchildren who are training to be or are qualified in a wide range of subjects. The middle classes want their children to acheive more than they dd. The working classes are no different.

OH cane from a northern family too poor to have a council house until he was 15. They lived in a tiny terrace with an outside loo and no kitchen. His parents were keen for him to do well academically. He passed his 11+, went to Grammar school and then Oxford where he read Engineering Science. Of course he had a full grant back then so didn’t end up with a huge debt. I am reiterating that working class parents often want their children to do well.

Whitewavemark2

MayBee70

But it was never made clear at the time of the referendum just how disastrous voting leave would be if it resulted in us being excluded from things like Horizon. The first thing that happened was the medicines agency leaving this country; that’s gone fir good now. It still isn’t going to be as easy for EU scientists to work here but at least is a step in the right direction.

Yes, I thought losing the Medicines Agency was an absolute disaster.

Maybee70 I’ve read that it was never intended that we would be frozen out of the Horizon programme, but it happened as a result of a tit for tat action from the EU over the UK’s approach on the NI agreement.Now that it’s sorted out, renegotiated, we are back in Horizon.

Whitewavemark2

MayBee70

But it was never made clear at the time of the referendum just how disastrous voting leave would be if it resulted in us being excluded from things like Horizon. The first thing that happened was the medicines agency leaving this country; that’s gone fir good now. It still isn’t going to be as easy for EU scientists to work here but at least is a step in the right direction.

Yes, I thought losing the Medicines Agency was an absolute disaster.

It was the first thing we were warned about during the referendum campaign and it was members of a local Conservative group that warned us about it…they were campaigning for remain. That’s when I realised that something very disturbing was happening. But, along with Ireland it wasn’t something that seemed to be discussed in debates or put on the front pages of the tabloids. And yet the work that these agencies do affect all of us in ways most of us don’t notice. I’d recommend the The Rest is Politics Leading interview with the Nobel prize winning scientist Paul Nurse* if anyone wants to learn more about Horizon
*he was, I assume, one if the experts we were told to ignore

Along with the problem of agreeing things on NI there were some things that were up in the air but I think it was always hoped that Horizon would be continued, there was really no reason why we shouldn’t continue to be part of it, as is now proved to be the case.
I voted to remain for a few reasons probably like yourself.
Becoming closer to European matters will hopefully continue, there was too much petulance shown from both sides during Brexit.

Urmstongran

This will doubtless delight the middle classes.
The working class not so much. Many don’t even register what Erasmus is - if you drive a van, are a plumber or painter and decorator it won’t even cross your mind.

A lot of stereotyping going on there and rather insulting to those of us who consider themselves working class.

Jane43

Urmstongran

This will doubtless delight the middle classes.
The working class not so much. Many don’t even register what Erasmus is - if you drive a van, are a plumber or painter and decorator it won’t even cross your mind.

A lot of stereotyping going on there and rather insulting to those of us who consider themselves working class.

And where exactly do you draw the line between van drivers, plumbers and painters and the "middle class"? The man who decorated my house was more middle class in education and previous employment than I am, so is the van driver who brings my Amazon parcels, and I have met any number of people who if asked would label themselves "middle class" and have all of what presumably count as the trappings but didn't go to university or get any other qualifications.

The snobs here are not those who want our connections to Horizon, Erasmus etc to continue, but those who think that "ordinary people" don't need access to these organisations. i remember someone years ago (a very nice person in all other respects) who thought that pupils at a local authority school didn't need a planned outing to an art exhibition "because they will just be working in factories"

From the Spectator:
Why Britain was excluded from Horizon
By Gus Carter

"What do Ukraine, Armenia, Israel and New Zealand have in common? None is an EU country and yet all of them are members of the EU’s Horizon programme, an £81 billion science funding scheme that, it was announced today, the UK will rejoin.
Britain had been one of the largest beneficiaries of the scheme before it left the EU. Throughout the Brexit process, the UK had expressed an interest in continuing as an associate member of Horizon, which gives scientists access to grants provided their country is signed up and pays in. It’s a status enjoyed by plenty of non-EU countries, and yet we ended up outside the scheme.
Even after Brexit, the UK continued to negotiate for access, but has only now secured the funding. Part of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement signed between the UK and EU specifically bans either party using EU programmes as leverage in wider negotiations. And yet the EU withheld Horizon membership because of ‘questions tied to the protocol on Northern Ireland’. In other words, the EU was withholding science funding, breaching the agreement it had signed and harming Europe-wide research in the process.
The wrangle over Horizon once again reveals the ways in which the EU was not a neutral actor in Brexit negotiations. Perhaps today’s deal is an indication that such pettiness has come to an end."

Personally, I'm not holding my breath about the EU giving up on pettiness...

MaizieD

I'm not altogether sure where Erasmus comes in as it is Horizon that we are rejoining.

I find some posters' efforts to typecast the 'working class' as insular and unaspirational very depressing. But I suppose that was the Brexit mentality. 'If we don't want it why should anyone else have it?'

Hear hear. Working class, middle class and upper class labels are very outdated concepts and I thought people had stopped labeling the class of themselves and others around about the time John Cleese, Ronnie Corbett et al mocked it in their excellent sketch.

Mollygo

Urmstongran

This will doubtless delight the middle classes.
The working class not so much. Many don’t even register what Erasmus is - if you drive a van, are a plumber or painter and decorator it won’t even cross your mind.

Erasmus didn’t benefit all, whether you speak the language or not. DD who speaks fluent French, was unable to get Erasmus funding. Eventually, her year at a French University was funded by us. It was a struggle for us but it did benefit her hugely.

I do wonder why that was? EU Universities were desperate to get UK students to take part, as there was always a huge inbalance between supply and demand. EU students were keen to learn English and were already at a sufficiently high level to take full part in studies in all subjects, not 'just' languages.

Whitewavemark2

Urmstongran

Maybe the fact that the EU want the UK to pay around £2 billion for rejoining has something to do with it? I thought the UK was pretty skint. Birmingham Council being a good example ...

How many free clubs of any quality are you aware of?

Exactly! Not the EUs fault the UK chose to leave. Pettiness???

So you are a member of the local Golf Club and decide you don't want to follow the rules and pay subs. And then you throw a tantrum because you can't play - and you say the Club is being petty? Bizarre.

Urmstongran

As far as I know a delivery driver on a zero hours contract doesn’t need a degree. Or Erasmus Whitewave. It’s horses for courses.

Oh, a bit judgemental...I've known people, well educated and well read, that, for whatever reason, have taken low paid jobs, as a temporary solution.

No, they don't need a degree - but they might still be well educated, and have common sense.

Having a degree guarantees very little. 🙄

Fleurpepper

Whitewavemark2

Urmstongran

Maybe the fact that the EU want the UK to pay around £2 billion for rejoining has something to do with it? I thought the UK was pretty skint. Birmingham Council being a good example ...

How many free clubs of any quality are you aware of?

Exactly! Not the EUs fault the UK chose to leave. Pettiness???

So you are a member of the local Golf Club and decide you don't want to follow the rules and pay subs. And then you throw a tantrum because you can't play - and you say the Club is being petty? Bizarre.

Taking your analogy further, Fleurpepper: if you give up your membership, the vast majority of golf clubs will continue to let you play if you pay the appropriate 'visitor's green fee'. In this case, Ukraine, NZ, Armenia and Israel are non-member 'visitors' and pay accordingly - but the petty old EU threw a tantrum and would not (until now) allow the UK the same courtesy. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

It was the U.K. cutting off its nose to spite its face in the whole Brexit farce. That includes leaving the Horizon programme. Maybe most voters won’t care, but the scientific advances and research will affect everyone - for example, the joint satellite technology which tracks the weather, storms, floods, climate change etc which is becoming increasingly important. I’m guessing most voters would agree that collaboration in research is more important than an insular little England mentality

I too read The Spectator report.
I like many others were unaware they had countries not even in Europe being part of the Horizon set up.

CoolCoco

It was the U.K. cutting off its nose to spite its face in the whole Brexit farce. That includes leaving the Horizon programme. Maybe most voters won’t care, but the scientific advances and research will affect everyone - for example, the joint satellite technology which tracks the weather, storms, floods, climate change etc which is becoming increasingly important. I’m guessing most voters would agree that collaboration in research is more important than an insular little England mentality

But the UK always said that it planned to rejoin the Horizon programme asap. It was the EU which wouldn't let it - because in its terror of other members opting to leave, it felt that the UK had to be seen to be punished for daring to do so.

Thanks for the Spectator report on why we were not included in Horizon until now Bodach😃they put it much better than I did.
Although a remainer at the time of the vote I can see that the EU have been petty about some things, as you say I expect they were terrified about others wanting to leave the union.
I’m not so blinded that I think the EU is marvellous in every way.We do need a better relationship but I think it will come with time, and the UK will do well.

Bodach

Fleurpepper

Whitewavemark2

Urmstongran

Maybe the fact that the EU want the UK to pay around £2 billion for rejoining has something to do with it? I thought the UK was pretty skint. Birmingham Council being a good example ...

How many free clubs of any quality are you aware of?

Exactly! Not the EUs fault the UK chose to leave. Pettiness???

So you are a member of the local Golf Club and decide you don't want to follow the rules and pay subs. And then you throw a tantrum because you can't play - and you say the Club is being petty? Bizarre.

Taking your analogy further, Fleurpepper: if you give up your membership, the vast majority of golf clubs will continue to let you play if you pay the appropriate 'visitor's green fee'. In this case, Ukraine, NZ, Armenia and Israel are non-member 'visitors' and pay accordingly - but the petty old EU threw a tantrum and would not (until now) allow the UK the same courtesy. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

Thank you Bodach I knew something about this but I have a brain like mince at present for good reason and I had forgotten the finer points. It was only when Sunak capitulated over NI (with Ursula vd Leyen purring ‘Dearest Rishi’ because the EU once again had the upper hand in negotiations) that the EU finally agreed to the UK rejoining Horizon. It’ll cost us though let’s hope it bears fruit. The EU are very risk averse which is admirable at times of course but many UK scientists aren’t quite so enamoured with their rules.

Urmstongran

Bodach

Fleurpepper

Whitewavemark2

Urmstongran

Maybe the fact that the EU want the UK to pay around £2 billion for rejoining has something to do with it? I thought the UK was pretty skint. Birmingham Council being a good example ...

How many free clubs of any quality are you aware of?

Exactly! Not the EUs fault the UK chose to leave. Pettiness???

So you are a member of the local Golf Club and decide you don't want to follow the rules and pay subs. And then you throw a tantrum because you can't play - and you say the Club is being petty? Bizarre.

Taking your analogy further, Fleurpepper: if you give up your membership, the vast majority of golf clubs will continue to let you play if you pay the appropriate 'visitor's green fee'. In this case, Ukraine, NZ, Armenia and Israel are non-member 'visitors' and pay accordingly - but the petty old EU threw a tantrum and would not (until now) allow the UK the same courtesy. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

Thank you Bodach I knew something about this but I have a brain like mince at present for good reason and I had forgotten the finer points. It was only when Sunak capitulated over NI (with Ursula vd Leyen purring ‘Dearest Rishi’ because the EU once again had the upper hand in negotiations) that the EU finally agreed to the UK rejoining Horizon. It’ll cost us though let’s hope it bears fruit. The EU are very risk averse which is admirable at times of course but many UK scientists aren’t quite so enamoured with their rules.

I don’t know many scientists to be honest, but all of the ones I do know are very opposed to Brexit. Are there any scientistsI would know that have spoken out against the EU and can you tell me their reasoning behind it.

The EU wasn’t “punishing” the U.K. - it was because of Johnson’s botched N.I. Protocol ( which Sunak has had to change). Funny that those who predicted that other countries would be clamouring to leave when they see how marvellously the U.K. is prospering outside of the EU hasn’t shown much sign of happening.

Apparently the next closer working will almost certainly be an agreement about electric cars and country of origin amongst others.

Sunak has apparently until the end of the year to get it done. If not the U.K. economy will take a big hit, and the Tories won’t want that just before an election.

Erasmus it seems is to be left until and if Labour gain office.

Also apparently there are a lot of closer working agreements lining up for us to sign up to, to make life easier for our scientists, educators, businesses, finance etc.

DiamondLily

Urmstongran

As far as I know a delivery driver on a zero hours contract doesn’t need a degree. Or Erasmus Whitewave. It’s horses for courses.

Oh, a bit judgemental...I've known people, well educated and well read, that, for whatever reason, have taken low paid jobs, as a temporary solution.

No, they don't need a degree - but they might still be well educated, and have common sense.

Having a degree guarantees very little. 🙄

Yes, many of them immigrants. I've known doctors to work as waiters, and lorry drivers for some years, to work out how they could get 'equivalence' and get the required level of language.