Charitable status and private schools

GrannyGravy13

Sir Starmer has seen the light and has decided to leave fee paying schools alone, well done 👏👏👏

Not if the VAT scheme he’s proposing goes ahead.

How are they subsidising private schools? Parents are paying taxes and their children not taking up places in public schools.

Oreo

Joseann looks like somebody is trying to no platform you😉

It isn’t a good look for Starmer to row back on promises so early on.

Ha ha! That's often the case on this subject Oreo. I'm actually fine with *MaizieD" discussing all the figures part, (that's her speciality and she is knowledgeable enough). It's the posters who have never set foot in an independent school, yet seem to know all about the workings!

The VAT scheme will undoubtedly affect small independent schools badly.
Most of the big ones I k ow have been discussing this for 6 or 7 years to find ways to mitigate any problems to their numbers. The thing is, it would probably take 5 years or so to implement.

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/12/the-guardian-view-on-private-schools-motors-of-unfairness

Interesting Guardian article.

It us already the case that charities are not exempt, because of their charity status, from paying VAT. They can claim various reliefs and concessions, however.

Independent schools are exempt from the requirement to charge VAT on school fees because the provision of education by an 'eligible body' is an 'exempt' supply for VAT purposes under current VAT legislation. This legislation covers private tuition, Univerities, etc.

It seems to me that Starmer has and is carrying out due diligence on this, while, in the press and social media, prejudice, as always, often overrides thruth.

Figures are one thing but actual knowledge of independent schools are another, I agree😁
It’s a complicated subject with loads of knock on type consequences.

Another knock on I've thought of is all the under 5's (lots of them), at independent schools who receive "childcare". Will they have to pay extra? Then so will all the other nursery children in the land? Impossible.

According to Bridget Phillipson ‘ We can press ahead with ending the tax breaks relatively quickly and then put that money into delivering better outcomes for children’.

Joseann

Another knock on I've thought of is all the under 5's (lots of them), at independent schools who receive "childcare". Will they have to pay extra? Then so will all the other nursery children in the land? Impossible.

Even the pre-schools attached to our local primary schools charge parents.

Aveline

How are they subsidising private schools? Parents are paying taxes and their children not taking up places in public schools.

I dont think truth comes into it fir some Aveline.

I have still not decided whether to support Labour into power in the next election or not. I hate what the Neo-Liberals have done to the country after taking over the the Conservative Party. But I would also hate what Neo-Communism (a creep towards totalitarianism) could do to us should they take over Labour.

fir for

DaisyAnneReturns

Aveline

How are they subsidising private schools? Parents are paying taxes and their children not taking up places in public schools.

I dont think truth comes into it fir some Aveline.

I have still not decided whether to support Labour into power in the next election or not. I hate what the Neo-Liberals have done to the country after taking over the the Conservative Party. But I would also hate what Neo-Communism (a creep towards totalitarianism) could do to us should they take over Labour.

dar what happened between you post timed 9.23 and this one? I read them as being in direct contradiction, but perhaps I’m wrong?

But I would also hate what Neo-Communism (a creep towards totalitarianism) could do to us should they take over Labour

I doubt that would happen DaisyAnne, particularly under Starmer and his Cabinet, although I do respect your point. For many, the current Labour Party is far too centrist. Of course, for me they’re not left enough - but that’s just me!

Just what does Labour have against independent schools? If parents can afford (whether easily or by scrimping and saving and going without) to send their child to an independent school what is wrong with that? Why make it even harder, probably impossible, for ordinary families to have choice in the matter of their children’s education?

And no, I didn’t attend an independent school, nor did my son.

Vouchers would probably send more into "alternative" education ronib - that's what I see happening.

Homeschoolers campaigned for this in the 1980s. I think nowadays it would encourage division.
I think that boat has sailed tbh.

I doubt very much that Starmer and his cabinet will be in control of the Labour Party for long, should they form the next government.
Private education is unfair; in my opinion it promotes the mediocre, children who would not cope within the state sector but not entirely their fault.
The state sector is burdened with inadequate funding, large classes, open enrolment, closure of special schools and lack of sanctions to deal with out of control pupils . Teachers are expected to do more and more social work to compensate for poor parenting.
Private schools may choose who they educate, and if they accept special needs children, as some do, the parents pay accordingly.

GrannyGravy13

Sir Starmer has seen the light and has decided to leave fee paying schools alone, well done 👏👏👏

I agree with you GrannyGravy.

It’s not that state schools are bad its that parents don’t care , if they did discipline would be vastly improved, teachers have no control over the children, are not respected by either so many are chaos and nobody cares.

If VAT was charged on Private schools it would make no difference, only 6 % of children go private, the amount is over £1bn but that is less than 1% of the education budget that is not going to make the slightest difference it’s just a sop to the left wing.

It would deter parents at the lowest level of private education the majority would just shrug their shoulders and carry on

Aveline

How are they subsidising private schools? Parents are paying taxes and their children not taking up places in public schools.

Yes Aveline. If every independent school closed tomorrow, the state sector would have a lot of trouble accommodating all the children. Luckily that won’t happen.

It was mentioned on TRIP’s a while back that the best countries for education are the ones where private schools are not allowed. From memory I think the mentioned Finland and Canada.

Whitewavemark2

DaisyAnneReturns

Aveline

How are they subsidising private schools? Parents are paying taxes and their children not taking up places in public schools.

I dont think truth comes into it fir some Aveline.

I have still not decided whether to support Labour into power in the next election or not. I hate what the Neo-Liberals have done to the country after taking over the the Conservative Party. But I would also hate what Neo-Communism (a creep towards totalitarianism) could do to us should they take over Labour.

dar what happened between you post timed 9.23 and this one? I read them as being in direct contradiction, but perhaps I’m wrong?

I'm not sure what you see as a contradiction Whitewave? Let me know and I will try and explain my thinking.

Oreo

MaizieD

I seen to remember a voucher scheme being offered undervtha Thatcher government. What happened to that?

I've worked in a state school in a deprived area. Actually, we liked our children, but some certainly had 'attitudes' that the private sector would find problematic... especially if they had a large number to deal with. State sector is obliged to take these children, I wonder how the private sector would cope if they had the same obligation.

They and their parents would be warned about their behaviour.If discipline still failed they would be suspended and maybe expelled.They wouldn’t have the obligation of continuing to educate them that state schools have.I’m not surprised that teachers enjoy their jobs at private schools.

I was musing on a hypothetical situation which could arise as a result of ronib's voucher suggestion. If private schools were subject to the same obligations as the state sector their whole outlook, and their popularity with some parents, might well change quite radically.

State schools can 'expel' pupils, but if they use that method too frequently questions would be asked, inspections made and a verdict of unsatisfactory would be the most likely result.

I would be interested to see how the private sector, which is supposedly so much better than the state sector, would fare if subject to the same constraints.

Of course, their much higher per pupil funding might help them to deal with these pupils better; these children often need far more individual attention than a state setting is able to give them because of cost constraints.

I’m not sure what state schools many of you attended or your children etc, but what you are describing of lack of discipline, chaos etc certainly does not reflect any state school that I am familiar with.

What the state schools have had to contend with has been the cruel slashing of their budgets, and the lack of support, which means that they can’t possibly compete with fee paying schools, and their impressive facilities.

The fact that state educated children succeed in spite of the apparent chaos, ill-discipline etc, says much for the resilience if these children and teachers.

MaizieD A technical point, and it could probably be labelled pedantic, but I am with Josie in thinking that "it is an 'unfortunate u-turn' " is not an exact quoting of her "backtracking on his pledge doesn't look good." If you are quoting part of someone else's post, then quote it, don't paraphrase it to change the meaning.