Charitable status and private schools

The point about a voucher system is that in theory only half of the fees for a typical private day school is covered by the state. So the other half is covered by grandparents, parents, insurance policies etc and that means the impoverished working and middle classes might consider private education. Many parents switch between private and state schools as it is.

Visgir1

We put our children into the Private sector at Junior level as the local schools were not the best. We struggle to pay the fees but I feel it was worth it. Only did it until they were 11 as we wanted the good foundation to see them into the senior sector.
So No not every parent is Rich and we by no means the only ones to do this, it was quite common in our era about 20 years ago.

So Vat on Private Schools, so will they do that to University fees as well? Same diffence? Although didn't they bring in Uni fees?

In 1995, Gillian Shepherd (Tory Ed Sec) asked Ron Dearing to look into Higher Ed funding. He reported in 1997. Obviously unis had made long-term funding plans for worst case scenario. Whether the plans were too far advanced to go back, whether there was no funding for Blair's Education Education Education plans and uni funding, I've no idea, but uni fees were initially a Tory idea.

There used to be a system called the Assisted Places Scheme. My husband taught in an independent school and his school had a number of assisted places available to children who came from low income backgrounds. My nephew benefited from such a place as my sister and her husband had a low income. My nephew is now a doctor. I’m not suggesting that all children who benefited from the scheme went on to become doctors, but a number of them went on to Oxbridge from my husband’s school.

Elegran

MaizieD A technical point, and it could probably be labelled pedantic, but I am with Josie in thinking that "it is an 'unfortunate u-turn' " is not an exact quoting of her "backtracking on his pledge doesn't look good." If you are quoting part of someone else's post, then quote it, don't paraphrase it to change the meaning.

I stand corrected, Elegran. I confused Joseann's wording with that of the next poster, who did use the terms 'unfortunate ' and 'u turn'. To me they both expressed some adverse criticism of the move.

However, I will now don my sackcloth and ashes and go and sit on the naughty step for a few hours in the hope that it will sufficiently atone for my crime against posting accuracy.

I’m not sure I would have liked to go to a private posh school with all the so called elites. If no private schools can you imagine them turning up in their chauffeur driven cars to lord it over the other kids at state school? No I expect they will educate them privately at home. At least that would be better than the poor little blighters sent off to boarding school at 8. No wonder they end up mal adjusted.

I liked the grammar school system whereby you got a decent education and were the equal of anyone. Instead of bringing private schools down we need to raise state schools up. Sending their kids to ordinary school wouldn’t do much for the have and have not divide.

DaisyAnneReturns

Whitewavemark2

DaisyAnneReturns

Aveline

How are they subsidising private schools? Parents are paying taxes and their children not taking up places in public schools.

I dont think truth comes into it fir some Aveline.

I have still not decided whether to support Labour into power in the next election or not. I hate what the Neo-Liberals have done to the country after taking over the the Conservative Party. But I would also hate what Neo-Communism (a creep towards totalitarianism) could do to us should they take over Labour.

dar what happened between you post timed 9.23 and this one? I read them as being in direct contradiction, but perhaps I’m wrong?

I'm not sure what you see as a contradiction Whitewave? Let me know and I will try and explain my thinking.

Sorry it was me - I read it completely wrongly. Apology

Finland abolished its fee-paying schools and instituted a nationwide comprehensive system from the early 1970s onwards … and, since then, Finland has consistently rated highly on all PISA categories. Result!

LizzieDrip

*But I would also hate what Neo-Communism (a creep towards totalitarianism) could do to us should they take over Labour*

I doubt that would happen DaisyAnne, particularly under Starmer and his Cabinet, although I do respect your point. For many, the current Labour Party is far too centrist. Of course, for me they’re not left enough - but that’s just me!

LizzieDrip

I'd like to believe it wouldn't happen under Starmer but once Parties get into power and become complacent about winning votes from the centre, they do tend to move to extremes.

As you point out, we want different thing but currently neither of us can get near what we want without some sort of tacit agreement.

Channel 4 News
"Keir Starmer is spineless, but so is Rishi Sunak"
Economist Yanis Varoufakis tells @krishgm what he says is "the greatest defeat in democracy" in Britain that there is no difference between a Labour and Conservative Prime Minister

You can find full video on YouTube
Yanas Varoufakis on the death of capitalism, Starmer and the tyranny of big tech.

Rich ppl aren’t posh they just have a bit more money than most of us. You should never judge a person by their personal choices. My granddaughter goes to a private school the local school is absolutely shocking and she is so advanced for age. military families get 90 percent paid for from the military. My granddaughter is no longer part of the military family her parents now pay for her. Yes she got some posh friends with very big houses but they don’t treat my son and his wife any differently.

Absolutely DaisyAnne and my vote will definitely go to Labour at the next election. Centre or Left, IMO Labour is (and will continue to be) the only party of social justice.

You must have missed the last conversation on here about this. LizzieDrip

There are still private schools in Finland. They do serve a smaller percentage than here but they exist. Always worth checking your facts

By the way, that one very statist post may have lost Labour my vote. It's only one but that sort of thinking will affect your chances.

I neither want an all powerful, new aristocracy or an all powerful state. I am a centrist democrat - difficult though that can be in today's UK.

MaizieD

Elegran

MaizieD A technical point, and it could probably be labelled pedantic, but I am with Josie in thinking that "it is an 'unfortunate u-turn' " is not an exact quoting of her "backtracking on his pledge doesn't look good." If you are quoting part of someone else's post, then quote it, don't paraphrase it to change the meaning.

I stand corrected, Elegran. I confused Joseann's wording with that of the next poster, who did use the terms 'unfortunate ' and 'u turn'. To me they both expressed some adverse criticism of the move.

However, I will now don my sackcloth and ashes and go and sit on the naughty step for a few hours in the hope that it will sufficiently atone for my crime against posting accuracy.

I used the terms "unfortunate" and "u-turn". Obviously I have not made my meaning clear, but what I wanted to convey was that these days, anything that looks like a change of policy for any reason, is jumped on as a failure. In this case, I think that removing charitable status may not be very effective, but VAT on fees might be better and is perhaps being considered. Changing policies in the light of further information can be very positive, but it is still seen as weakness by our dreadful press. I hope that makes what I meant a bit clearer.

Having said that, I am not at all in favour of Rishi Sunak's recent backtracking, as I think his information is wrong!

Thanks for your explanation, Wheniwasyourage. I'm sorry if I took your original words the wrong way.

It does seem unfair, though, that, when the PM is doing, saying and approving all sorts of dreadful things, with very little media disapproval, the media will attempt to vilify the LOTO for very little at all.

I'm resigned to that, but it's annoying, all the same

Yes DaisyAnne I missed that. However, only 2% of pupils in Finland attend private schools, and private schools are not allowed to make profit:

Reetta Niinimäki, assistant attaché at the Finnish embassy in Spain, explained to AFP Factual: "Private education is not prohibited in Finland, but for-profit basic education is . "
A very different system from the divisive, class-riddled one operating in the UK, I believe.

Aveline

How are they subsidising private schools? Parents are paying taxes and their children not taking up places in public schools.

I don't have the time to do the maths but apparently only 7% of pupils go to private schools which means that 93% go to state schools. Ergo the taxes paid by the parents of that 93% are contributing, perhaps in a small way, to the education of the 7%.

Nannashirlz

Rich ppl aren’t posh they just have a bit more money than most of us. You should never judge a person by their personal choices. My granddaughter goes to a private school the local school is absolutely shocking and she is so advanced for age. military families get 90 percent paid for from the military. My granddaughter is no longer part of the military family her parents now pay for her. Yes she got some posh friends with very big houses but they don’t treat my son and his wife any differently.

How do you/they know that they are treated in the same way as the posh people treat their friends?

A very minor example of how so called posh people treat others. My DH visited a large house in Suffolk purchased by a couple moving out from London. He went to look at some furniture that need restoring. The "lady" of the house was sitting with a friend with a large pot of coffee in front of them. When asked if he would like a cup the woman took a jar of instant coffee and made him a mug. If that had been me I would have said no thanks, I don't drink instant. He was too polite but I don't think he drank it. The only instant coffee in our house is a small packet of espresso powder which I use sometimes in cooking.

Not all fee paying schools are elite some are just have fewer pupils than state schools with smaller classes.

With five children we used both state and fee paying schools along with tutors when necessary.

To abolish the private sector because not all can afford it is like saying close Fortnum & Masons, Harvey Nichols etc as not all of the population can afford to shop there.

Freya5

I'm pleased about this. My non rich inlaws put their child into a private school, because the state school was c... . Bullying rife, no help, so out they came and what a difference. Massive improvement in confidence, and excellent GCSE results. Choice is paramount. Their sacrifice worth it. Let's not bring everything down to the lowest, let's up the state schools game.

We did exactly the same for our eldest many years ago. They say it was the best thing that ever happened to them.
I felt guilty at first and talked endlessly about it to my Socialist father who said go for it they had been planning to do the same for me if I had not passed my 11+. He even contributed to the fees saying happiness and achievement before political principals .
The choice has to be there and the State schools need a big injection of money to allow them to bring their standards up
Leveling down to a common denominator helps no one.

s

Drinking instant coffee doesn’t appear to me to be a sign of people not being posh, whatever posh is! All kinds of people drink instant coffee. It’s not a status symbol to drink coffee that’s not instant.

maddyone

Drinking instant coffee doesn’t appear to me to be a sign of people not being posh, whatever posh is! All kinds of people drink instant coffee. It’s not a status symbol to drink coffee that’s not instant.

My DH likes instant coffee so that is what he drinks, I dislike instant and do not drink it, which leaves me the coffee machine win win.

GrannyGravy13

Not all fee paying schools are elite some are just have fewer pupils than state schools with smaller classes.

With five children we used both state and fee paying schools along with tutors when necessary.

To abolish the private sector because not all can afford it is like saying close Fortnum & Masons, Harvey Nichols etc as not all of the population can afford to shop there.

I absolutely agree with this GrannyGravy.
We also used both state and independent schools for all three of our children. We also used a private tutor for one of the children.

Perhaps Harvey Nichols, Fortnum and Masons, Harrods, all designer shops and goods, and coffee that’s not instant should be prohibited because not everyone can afford them.

We’re the other way round GrannyGravy, I prefer instant coffee whilst my husband prefers ground coffee.

I put my two children through private school. We were NOT rich we struggled to pay fees at times and did without other things in order to do so. I had two very bright children and the youngest was horrendously bullied by older boys . They both went to state primary school but after the bullying and the local comp being so dire we changed to the private sector and I never regretted it. It was how I chose to spend my money my friends who said I was “lucky” to do so had two new cars and 3 holidays a year. We did not.

I agree state schools should be improved but my children and grandchildren going to private school releases more space in state provision for others and I pay taxes like everyone else.

It will be difficult for my daughter if vat goes on fees . Labour had not said it will backtrack on that , charitable status will make little difference

To abolish the private sector because not all can afford it is like saying close Fortnum & Masons, Harvey Nichols etc as not all of the population can afford to shop there.

I can't help feeling that if the private and the state sector were on the same financial footing with regard to expenditure per pupil, the private sector might well wither away.

As it is, while there are many very good state schools, one cannot blame parents who feel that, if the local state provision is poor, if they can afford it, it is in their child's interest to pay for private education.

However, I can't help feeling that there is more to state v. private education than just the quality of education offered. There is an elitist element to private education which goes back perhaps for centuries, where the long established private schools provide more than just an education, they offer a network of privilege and easy access to the 'top' jobs by being part of a certain social grouping to recipients who may be no more meretricious than state educated individuals.

Britain’s most influential people are over 5 times more likely to have been to a fee-paying school than the general population. Just 7% of British people are privately educated, compared to two-fifths (39%) of those in top positions.

www.gov.uk/government/news/elitism-in-britain-2019