Charitable status and private schools

ronib

What counts as a pupil’s outcome - winning a place at Oxbridge or Russell Group? In which case, a certain group of highly selective schools do have a high percentage of students accepted by Oxbridge colleges.
Also academy schools exist in addition to comprehensive, grammar and sixth form colleges. Don’t academies also have charitable status?

OK. The report looked at academic outcomes at the end of KS4 (GCSR O level).

They took children with similar attainment levels at the end of KS2 and tracked them through to end KS4. Their conclusions were broadly that there was no difference between the attainment of pupils in selective schools and those in comprehensives. They did find, though, that the pupils of similar attainment at the end of KS2 in selective areas, who had failed to get into a selective school, had poorer attainment at end KS4 than pupils in nonselective areas.

Yes, it's a bit of a mind numbing read, but if you find the bit where they explain the criteria for choosing the children to be tracked and then go to the Conclusion it tells you what you want to know.

Of course, if you are familiar with the types of research methodologies used and are in a position to critique them then you have to read the bit in the middle...

Academies don't have charitable status as far as I'm aware. They were just given more money and independence from LA control. They're still state funded schools.

Thanks MaizieD for your explanation - quite interesting and a very complex topic …. a further twist on sources of social inequality.
Academies are state funded schools with exempt charitable status I believe. Don’t ask me how or why.

ronib

Why not wear secondhand? It is more fashionable to have a sustainable lifestyle than a fad consumer approach - good values are part of education too.
What are the right trainers these days?

It depends upon the confidence of the children. A friend in Suffolk kitted out the whole family from the Saturday morning Salvation Army clothes sales. They were very good because they regularly received clothes and accessories from people returning to America from the local base. By good I mean Dior, YSL and so on. Her children went to the local private school and had no problem with wearing what we now call pre loved clothes. I don't know whether she bought 2nd hand school uniforms for them.

My youngest had a pretty outgoing personality and won a scholarship to a very prestigious school. She had a large group of friends who she influenced to wear ‘grungy’ op shop clothes. I was delighted, needless to say. The education they gave her was superb, the best of the lot and she really fitted in. We couldn’t have afforded their fees in normal circumstances. The thing with a lot of private schools is they tend to instil self confidence which is very valuable. By contrast, the state school ,which was not a bad school by any means, seemed to focus on negatives and half the time they didn’t even know who their pupils were.

Well said Freya5

It's nonsense to suggest the public/private schools can't be abolished on the grounds they have contingency plans to relocate abroad. Their assets could be nationalized so they could not be transferred abroad.

I sympathise with those who simply want every child to have the best education but while the private sector continues to enjoy massive financial privilege the state system will be deprived of funds. We don't hear much about dilapidated public schools or a RAAC problem there. All that Keegan can come up with is banning mobile phones in state schools while the sector is underfunded.

Comparing private education with other aspects of the mixed economy is interesting. There might be a good case for outlawing private medical care (which leeches off the NHS) and for bringing social care into the NHS to remove the profit element which directs funds out of patient care, just as the water companies pay out vast dividends to shareholders while failing to deal with sewage outflows.

Sorry if this upsets people, and it’s just my opinion, I have experience of both state and private schools, older son attended a very lovely prep school and went into a state grammar, we were very much the poor relations at his prep school but he was bright and won a partial scholarship. Went into have three more children in a different relationship, couldn’t afford to send these three to the same prep school so they went to a local large primary school with many different nationalities and with some pupils coming from deprived backgrounds. I was concerned so became a school governor at this school to help understand how things worked for the whole time they attended this school, and chair of the PTA for two years to help raise much needed school funds. A big resounding NO, Independent schools should not have charitable status, it’s entirely parents choice to pay to have their children educated privately and fees should more than cover the schools expenses ! No school could ever be called “crap” it’s insulting to both pupils and staff. Schools should all be funded properly and give all it’s pupils the gift of high quality education, opportunities and aspiration.

Of course all schools should be excellent but sadly they're just not. Wishing away private schools won't help the situation

Grantanow - public schools already have made contingency plans and own land abroad and have set up schools all over the world. The Uk government can’t stop schools relocating in reality.

Dream on - you really are very innocent…..

Nationalising the assets of independent schools? Outlawing private medical care? What next Grantanow? Would you like to live in a country which did that sort of thing?

LizzieDrip

*But I would also hate what Neo-Communism (a creep towards totalitarianism) could do to us should they take over Labour*

I doubt that would happen DaisyAnne, particularly under Starmer and his Cabinet, although I do respect your point. For many, the current Labour Party is far too centrist. Of course, for me they’re not left enough - but that’s just me!

It's not just you LizzieDrip - I find that I'm moving further Left as I age, and I despair at the pernicious poison that has spread throughout society over the last 50 years..! 😓

I have a GC who attended state primary, a school highly regarded. The parents were constantly battling about lack of support on bullying; why results were poor having pointed out to school his lack of concentration at home; his lack of interest in joining in at school and suggested an assessment on ADHD. School turned whole situation around on the parents asking what was going on at home, it could be whatever that was that was causing problems at school!!! As a family we had enough and we all agreed to contribute to cost of private schooling. At secondary, school immediately spotted issues and have applied for assessment of possible learning difficulties. They have put in place small tactics to help GC cope and results are sky high. GC hapoy at school, has been on a 4 day trip with no issues. Anyone who considers penalising private education should take a long hard look at the general group of people using these schools and why. Not all private schools are Eton.

No one wants to “penalise” private education or indeed private healthcare, people in a democracy should always have the choice, and attending an independent school doesn’t always mean a “better” education or more qualified teachers, same as paying for price healthcare doesn’t give you access to better consultants, but independent schools certainly shouldn’t have charitable status, they are not charities !

Most independent schools setting up don't apply for charitable status, and most of those who have it wouldn't be over bothered to lose it. It really isn't such a big deal. Maybe Keir Srarmer realised this.

Anyone who considers penalising private education should take a long hard look at the general group of people using these schools and why.

The fundamental reason why there is a difference between what state and private schools can do is funding. It all boils down to money.

Fund state schools to the same level as private and then see what happens.

Of course, a complete subversion of the meaning of 'charity' doesn't help.

MaizieD but then of course all VAT registered businesses are able to recover the VAT which they have paid … so I guess there might be some careful calculations to be made. There might be a profit to the public schools under this new accounting system ?

The concept of 'choice' in a mixed economy democracy is very misleading. Most people don't have the money to choose public/private schools or private medical care or the very best care/nursing home so they don't have a real choice. Of course, there are some examples in which parents can just afford it if they go short on essentials, can call on help from grandparents or their employer contributes but for the vast majority those options don't apply. The Tories don't care about that.

I’ve just looked up what VAT registered schools would be able to reclaim VAT on - and it’s a significant number of goods and services. So, why will private schools need to pass on the whole 20% VAT levy to parents, thereby increasing fees? With the amount of VAT they’ll be able to reclaim, they might end up ‘status quo’ financially. So, storm in a teacup, methinks! I still believe they should have to pay VAT though, following the same procedures as other businesses; claiming back where appropriate. I’m sure private schools have got EXCELLENT accountants who are crunching the numbers as we speak, to ensure their wealthy clients don’t suffer!

Touché LizzieDrip, exactly what I have been saying is happening.

The slightly tricky bit is the unknown in terms of parents' reactions, but if the school keeps its "customers" in the know and on board then I'm sure it will all work out just fine.

And LizzieDrip parents with their own companies might be able to pay school fees through their company and reclaim 20 percent VAT so interesting times ahead.
After all the State pays for children of diplomats etc to be educated at boarding schools so can’t see why creative accountants can’t dream up new schemes for companies…. particularly where parents are employed overseas.

Yes, the wealthy will always find loopholes that aren’t open to the rest of us.

People choose to spend their excess in ways up to them, if the costs go up because of tax status, people can work that into their plans. All choices.

I don’t know if anyone realises but very wealthy families also avail themselves of full State education provision.
Also able to send children to Oxbridge to postgraduate level….. from the local comprehensive.
Quite a moral maze isn’t it?

Nannashirlz

Rich ppl aren’t posh they just have a bit more money than most of us. You should never judge a person by their personal choices. My granddaughter goes to a private school the local school is absolutely shocking and she is so advanced for age. military families get 90 percent paid for from the military. My granddaughter is no longer part of the military family her parents now pay for her. Yes she got some posh friends with very big houses but they don’t treat my son and his wife any differently.

Military families MAY have got 90% of the fees paid if they searched hard for the cheapest schools A convent school in which I taught years ago offered boarding with very limited other facilities at a little over the army contribution at the time.
The girls would amuse themselves in the evening by running up and down carrying a railway sleeper OR a more enterprising one managed to pick the lock to the laboratory where she set up a business ( using a kilt pin and Bunsen burner) piercing the girls' ears.
Most Forces Parents paid 50%^ of the fees in schools where the children were somewhat better provided for

If they have an 'excess', of course.