Charitable status and private schools

Whitewavemark2

Sago

Private/public schools do not have to follow the national curriculum and are therefore not “teaching the exam”.
This gives scope a more rounded education.

The other major factor is time, our boys started lessons at 8.40 and didn’t finish school until 9pm, there were breaks for tea, prep an extra curricula activity and supper.

Sport was played for at least 90 minutes a day and all afternoon on Wednesday for some pupils, Saturday school was 9.00 until 1 pm unless they were playing in a match then it could be much later.
Not all bank holidays were honoured.

I’m sure if state schools didn’t have to contend with SATs and league tables they could spend more energy on teaching.

Was the school called The Lowood Institution by any chance 😄😄

No, Jane Eyre was female therefore went to an all girls school.

Oh maybe I’ve got it wrong, ooops! I really thought it was a Direct Grant school but it was a grammar school, not that there was much difference between the two.
Grammar schools, something that the Labour Party have denied to our children, even though so many of them, and us Gransnetters, have benefitted from when they existed. The abolition of grammar schools is what has forced many parents to choose independent schools. If grammar schools still existed there would be far fewer independent schools.

I thought there must have been boarding Sago.
One of our grandsons attends an independent school and will be changing to another independent school next academic year. He will be a day boy, but there are some boarders there, and the facility to board one or two nights is available. My son and his partner are considering whether it would be nice for their son to board one night a week as there are all sorts of lovely activities on offer in the evenings. Grandson seems quite keen at the moment.

The young schoolgirl who died during the senseless stabbing in Croydon went to a private school. Her name would indicate she was of African ethnicity. It's a fact that some African communities desire a stricter school regime with better pupil outcomes and will look towards the private sector to that end. Having lived in Croydon, way back long before I had children, it did seem that then that there were some bad state schools in that area, so it would be easy to understand just why the family of the murdered school girl wanted and expected something better than an establishment that had a laissez faire attitude towards discipline, a school where much of the time is devoted to crowd control rather than teaching! The Croydon I lived in back in the seventies felt fairly safe, now from all I read gangs and knife crimes are prevalent in that area and heartbreakingly this young woman got caught up in the milieu of some senseless piece of violence and all the promise of a successful life ahead was cut short.

She was said to be academically bright and wanted to be a lawyer. What a waste.

If schools retain charitable status under Labour's plans (U turn) does that mean they would be able to reclaim any proposed VAT anyway or pay a reduced rate on goods and services?

Sago

Whitewavemark2

Sago

Private/public schools do not have to follow the national curriculum and are therefore not “teaching the exam”.
This gives scope a more rounded education.

The other major factor is time, our boys started lessons at 8.40 and didn’t finish school until 9pm, there were breaks for tea, prep an extra curricula activity and supper.

Sport was played for at least 90 minutes a day and all afternoon on Wednesday for some pupils, Saturday school was 9.00 until 1 pm unless they were playing in a match then it could be much later.
Not all bank holidays were honoured.

I’m sure if state schools didn’t have to contend with SATs and league tables they could spend more energy on teaching.

Was the school called The Lowood Institution by any chance 😄😄

No, Jane Eyre was female therefore went to an all girls school.

😄😄. Guess what? I might have known that 😄😄

How do academic selection systems affect pupils’ educational attainment? New evidence from an analysis of large-scale data on England

ABSTRACT

Extensive literature has compared the effect of selective schools with that of non-selective schools on pupil outcomes in England. However, evaluation of selective systems has been sparse and contradictory. From the perspective of educational equity, this study assesses the potential impact of academically selective school systems on pupils’ overall academic outcomes. To do this, we compare pupils’ academic performance in a selective system with that in a non-selective system using large-scale national data from England. The results show no evidence of a superior academic effect of selective systems on pupils’ academic outcomes. While the general results for the effects of the two systems reveal neither system to be superior, an internal pattern implies negative results from the selective system, from which high performers suffer. The findings collectively imply that maintaining selective systems for compulsory education is unlikely to generate any substantial academic gain.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00131911.2023.2240977#:

If there were more grammar schools, it may be that there would be fewer pupils in independent schools. However, there would be many pupils failed, as there were back when most local authorities had selective systems.
Anytime I hear that there should be more grammar schools, I ask (if appropriate) if the person would like to see more secondary moderns. I rarely hear 'yes'. I occasionally hear 'well if they fail the 11+ they can go to comprehensives'. I am usually too kind to point out that their own education must be lacking if they think that is logical!!

Have you not read the research I just posted, Nannarose?

Selective schools make no difference to pupil's outcomes.

Do Secondary Moderns still exist? I though it was just Comprehensives now.

thought

What counts as a pupil’s outcome - winning a place at Oxbridge or Russell Group? In which case, a certain group of highly selective schools do have a high percentage of students accepted by Oxbridge colleges.
Also academy schools exist in addition to comprehensive, grammar and sixth form colleges. Don’t academies also have charitable status?

People play the system as far as grammar schools are concerned, I tend to have this argument with my husband he went to one and is of the opinion they give pupils from poorer backgrounds a chance. It's a fact that many families who enter their children for such highly coveted and very over subscribed places, start the preparation in extra curricular coaching from an early age, and they no doubt have the means to pay for whatever that costs, precluding those who can't afford to do that.

I think it would be good if we could emulate the German system, I had a German friend when we had young children together and she was of the opinion that here in England some were obsessed with private education, or maybe that's just where we lived. She said that wasn't the case in Germany most Germans were satisfied with the state system and they do appear to have a beneficial two forked approach, of an academic path but an equally valued educational trajectory as an entrance into worthwhile apprenticeships.

ronib

What counts as a pupil’s outcome - winning a place at Oxbridge or Russell Group? In which case, a certain group of highly selective schools do have a high percentage of students accepted by Oxbridge colleges.
Also academy schools exist in addition to comprehensive, grammar and sixth form colleges. Don’t academies also have charitable status?

You'd have to read the research to find out their criteria. I posted the link.

Having attended what was, frankly, a bad single sex Grammar school I don't have any great love for them. It certainly did nothing that a decent Comprehensive can't do now.

MaizieD I tried to read the article and found my eyes glazing over …. I rather hoped you could say since you presumably did read it.
Lots of people report negatively on early education……

MaizieD

Have you not read the research I just posted, Nannarose?

Selective schools make no difference to pupil's outcomes.

Do Secondary Moderns still exist? I though it was just Comprehensives now.

I don’t think that academic outcome is the benefit for pupils of attending private schools though, or even why parents select private education MaizieD. What they confer is social and work related advantage - it’s not what you know, it’s who you know.

Casdon maybe networking take place at the likes of Eton, Rugby, Roedean etc., but not at the average small local fee paying school.

Callistemon21

If schools retain charitable status under Labour's plans (U turn) does that mean they would be able to reclaim any proposed VAT anyway or pay a reduced rate on goods and services?

Sorry Callistemon21, unfortunately I'm not an expert figures person on how all private schools are run, (well, not an expert figures person at anything really other than budgeting for my own wardrobe!), but I do know that independent schools are carrying out VAT input projections for things they purchase with the intention of seeing how they would be able to claw back 4% - 5% from refunds. This would mean that in all likelihood schools would put up their fees around 15% and not the scarier 20% figure. (Every little helps!) I do think schools will need to be transparent on the figures with parents.
Interestingly, one loophole would be to offer parents the option of paying, say, 5 years' fees in advance before the legislation kicks in. You might be surprised how many parents have a spare £100k lying around!! 💸 💸

GrannyGravy13

Casdon maybe networking take place at the likes of Eton, Rugby, Roedean etc., but not at the average small local fee paying school.

There’s evidence that it does, although small local private schools are less likely to have the connected parents, and don’t perhaps imbue their pupils will the same level of self belief. Here’s an interesting study by the Institute of Fiscal Studies.
ifs.org.uk/inequality/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Private-schools-and-inequality.pdf

Why would you start your reporting of a "fact" with some might argue Callistemon. A fact is provable and only needs to be stated. You have no idea if his education "biased" his opinion or not. So his bias (which is what matters) is unproven, i.e., not a "fact".

If you listened to what Marr says, Starner's position because of his education, vis a vis his siblings, could well have given him very strong views on education opportunities for all.

Labour decided to make the change because:

*The major tax raiser is from adding VAT to school fees.
*Removing charitable status is difficult and time consuming.
* Labour are not abandoning removal of charitable status, just being pragmatic about what they do immediately.

As I said, Starmer has every reason to believe in giving everyone opportunities, but rather than spending time on everlasting philosophical discussions I see him as someone who may actually get things done.

Casdon

MaizieD

Have you not read the research I just posted, Nannarose?

Selective schools make no difference to pupil's outcomes.

Do Secondary Moderns still exist? I though it was just Comprehensives now.

I don’t think that academic outcome is the benefit for pupils of attending private schools though, or even why parents select private education MaizieD. What they confer is social and work related advantage - it’s not what you know, it’s who you know.

I was responding to assertion that Grammar schools are wonderful things. They mostly were, in their day, but they don't have much place in the system now and, as the report points out, their pupil's outcomes are no better than those of comprehensive educated pupils.

I know the research report had nothing to do with the private sector. But the thread was getting derailed...

ronib

What counts as a pupil’s outcome - winning a place at Oxbridge or Russell Group? In which case, a certain group of highly selective schools do have a high percentage of students accepted by Oxbridge colleges.
Also academy schools exist in addition to comprehensive, grammar and sixth form colleges. Don’t academies also have charitable status?

What counts as a pupil’s outcome - winning a place at Oxbridge or Russell Group?

Unless someone inherits wealth, I would think the best outcome is getting a job and being able to support yourself through life.

Nannarose

If there were more grammar schools, it may be that there would be fewer pupils in independent schools. However, there would be many pupils failed, as there were back when most local authorities had selective systems.
Anytime I hear that there should be more grammar schools, I ask (if appropriate) if the person would like to see more secondary moderns. I rarely hear 'yes'. I occasionally hear 'well if they fail the 11+ they can go to comprehensives'. I am usually too kind to point out that their own education must be lacking if they think that is logical!!

No, there are grammar schools in some areas alongside comprehensive schools.

Callistemon21

Nannarose

If there were more grammar schools, it may be that there would be fewer pupils in independent schools. However, there would be many pupils failed, as there were back when most local authorities had selective systems.
Anytime I hear that there should be more grammar schools, I ask (if appropriate) if the person would like to see more secondary moderns. I rarely hear 'yes'. I occasionally hear 'well if they fail the 11+ they can go to comprehensives'. I am usually too kind to point out that their own education must be lacking if they think that is logical!!

No, there are grammar schools in some areas alongside comprehensive schools.

And, even if a child does pass the 11+ they can still opt to go to a comprehensive school.

Local authorities and academy chains may call schools 'comprehensive' but they are not true comprehensives if some pupils are selected out. They call them comprehensives for 2 reasons:
1. they then don't have top use the term 'secondary modern'
2. it helps to discredit the comprehensive ideal

There are debates to be had, but they are not helped by sloppy terminology.

I am fortunate to have had children who went to true comprehensives in a non-selective system.