Hamas has attacked Israel

Water turned off Electricity turned off 2.3 million Palestinians are now without means of escape. We are now in our 4th day of carpet bombing of Gazza.

Israel are the occuping force they are an apartheid state.

No mention of the atrocities committed by Israel from Sir Keir Starmer a Labour Leader. He just condems Palestine will not admit that Israel is an apartheid state. What sort of leader is that.

I agree with the need to know how where we got where we are, because without that we can only half understand the present.

What I think my exploration of the history today shows me is that I can understand the Arabs resentment etc their land seemingly being taken away, but equally I so understand the Jewish need for their own state where they are safe from persecution and hate. The tragedy imo is that it was all done so badly and incompetently by the British, - at least until up to as far as I have got.

I posted earlier on this thread as members of my own family live and work near Sderot and now have been evactuated and trying to fly home to the UK.
We personally know some of the victims and the shock, desperation and grief is unimaginable. My daughter teaches English at the local school.. children and teachers, friends and neighbours have been raped, beheaded and butchered. This is the reality and they have no idea what has happened to those who have been kidnapped.. I can’t imagine how survivors will recover from this.
My family are fortunate (if that’s the word) that Hamas didn’t get as far as their kibbutz.
While Gransnet members cozily discuss the origins and history of this conflict please remember that Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation who have inflicted the absolute worst crimes that human beings are capable of. There are Jewish and non Jewish (myself) people on here who are directly affected by these atrocities.
I have sympathy with the innocent Palestinian people but with Hamas in power this barbarism is inevitable.
We know a carpenter from West Bank who refused to talk to the Gaza boys who came to help out in the garden. I can’t explain that as we didn’t want to ask why. I was there and felt sad for the whole situation.
There is absolutely no excuse for the heartbreaking atrocities that have happened in an area where my family currently live. They and their German exchange friends are lucky to be alive.

Bagpuss123 I have no words for what your family is going through, I pray that they continue to be safe

Thank you ❤️

Bagpuss123 well said.
There are no words of comfort to offer. My family in Israel are telling me that the Israeli people are more united than they can remember in the 35 years they have lived there. They are totally determined that the Hamas threat will be wiped out.
Holding them and all Israelis in my thoughts along with the Palestinian citizens caught up in this disaster.

I can’t honestly see how Hamas can survive this, and I don’t believe that they should. I’m sure that Egypt who has been willing to broker peace between Israel and Hamas in the recent past, will not do so with such barbarians now. There is nothing to choose between Hamas and ISIS imo.

Bagpuss123 - I am so sorry for what you and all your family are going through.

Whitewavemark2

I can’t honestly see how Hamas can survive this, and I don’t believe that they should. I’m sure that Egypt who has been willing to broker peace between Israel and Hamas in the recent past, will not do so with such barbarians now. There is nothing to choose between Hamas and ISIS imo.

The best thing Egypt can do is open their border to the refugees.

Well said, Bagpuss.

merlotgran

Whitewavemark2

I can’t honestly see how Hamas can survive this, and I don’t believe that they should. I’m sure that Egypt who has been willing to broker peace between Israel and Hamas in the recent past, will not do so with such barbarians now. There is nothing to choose between Hamas and ISIS imo.

The best thing Egypt can do is open their border to the refugees.

Well said, Bagpuss.

I agree, but I am almost certain that they won’t, for at least a couple of reasons.

First they do not want to offer succour to the horror that is Hamas, and second the level of refugees will be enormous as 2million Palestinians have nowhere else to go.

2million Palestinians have nowhere else to go.

So along with every other Arab country Egypt is happy to sit back, do nothing and watch Israel getting the flak for defending itself.

Easy!

Perhaps Iran will take them - they have bankrolled this whole sorry affair.

Bagpuss I’m so sorry about what is happening to your family. I hope they get home safely. Also remembering your family lixy, and all the Jewish grand on here and their families.

The atrocities are horrendous. Unspeakable acts have been committed by people who are barely human. How will the victims recover from this? We speak frequently of poor mental health in this country. These acts put that into a whole different category.

Jewish grans

I thought I’d proof read.

merlotgran

Getting back to the present day…Can anyone tell me why Egypt has a closed border with Gaza? Surely a fellow Muslim country should be offering to help those desperate people trying to flee and have no way out?

Why? Would the UK help out the citizens of another country just because they're Christian?

Whitewavemark2

Perhaps Iran will take them - they have bankrolled this whole sorry affair.

Not if Iranian football fans have any say:

www.msn.com/en-in/sports/football/iranian-fans-at-football-match-chant-to-remove-palestine-flags-on-the-pitch-amid-israel-hamas-conflict-video/ar-AA1hTyg2

I have not read every page but some comments I have read are sad/appalling and factually very wrong.

Every sympathy seems to be accorded with the Palestinians and far fewer to the Israelis.

Palestine has an extremely robust public relations campaign whereas the Israelis do not bother. Why? Simply because the old anti-Semitic trope is still running and they have just given up trying to appeal to worldwide logical hearts and minds: 'let the Palestinians say what they want, we will look after ourselves'. That's been the Israeli attitude.

I always want to tell others just how small Israel is, as the common view that it is a huge, mighty country: IRELAND is over three times bigger than Israel. Israel is tiny.

Israel punches way above its weight with its innovations: inventions, medicines, mobile 'phones etc. If you really want to boycott Israel, be prepared to do without the everyday drugs that you may depend on.

The Arab countries have vast tracts of developed land and could easily take in or help the Palestinians but do not. Does anyone ask themselves why (or are they too busy chanting about how awful Israel is?).

Israel allows Arabs to vote in Israeli elections and has provided them with jobs etc. They are free to worship as they please in Israel. Could someone please tell me where the same courtesy is accorded to Israelis in Palestine? Oh, that's because there are none/no synagogues etc. The Palestinian message has been murderous hate.

There are some 175,000 Palestinians still in Lebanon but they do not have the vote, unlike those in living in Israel.

Yes, there have been wars (all orchestrated by Arabs) against Israel and the Israelis won territory. They are then castigated for winning and the demand is that they return won lands. Think Europe 1945: arbitrary borders were drawn up by the British, Americans and Russians and Americans. Why should the borders in Israel be different?

After the wars of 1967 and 1973 (started by Arabs) won by Israel in Gaza, they put in farms and greenhouses and a modern-day infrastructure. The area thrived. The Israelis later chose to withdraw leaving everything intact giving autonomy to the region to govern. Then Hamas was voted into power and all the above was destroyed. Ask yourself why?

Oh, something else: the 'Palestinians Refugee Camps' are not. These are cities, such as you and I live in or know. No tents with sand blowing in. However, for such cities, commerce has not thrived. Again, ask yourself why?

Women are marginalised in Palestine whereas women are fully-fledged citizens in Israel.

The Palestinians are disliked by most Arab countries who do not help them: they are generally thought of as troublemakers and there has not been a rush by all the vast, extremely wealthy (think oil) Arab countries to help Palestine with industry and infrastructure or take in refugees..

In July 2,000 Palestinians became refugees after a dispute between Fatah and Islamist groups within Lebanon, nothing to do with Israel..

Incidentally there are factions in the Arab world: Sunnis hate Shi'ites and vice versa. It has been said that they hate each other more than they hate Israel!

Is it possible that the murders in Israel are to do with the fact that Israel and Saudi Arabia are seeing more eye to eye? This is blasphemy to Iran who has stated that it's only agenda with Israel is to remove it completely...

Is it Israelis who have been terrorising the world, bombing and killing, even changing most of our lives forever in a minor way (airport security etc.)? No.

I just do not understand why Israel is so despised unless because of scapegoating etc.

Just try to understand how a small nation, surrounded, yes, surrounded by others who want to and have now succeeded in killing them is fighting to survive.

How Palestinian flags can be waved in London considering the sickening killings is beyond me. I would have thought that Palestinian people living here would want to hide in shame. Not so.

After all of the above, Mr and Mrs Israeli and Mr and Mrs Palestinian probably want to carry on with their day to day lives. Only the people and countries... behind this mindless murderous violence will know and understand why it is taking place but please, do recognise that a minute country such as Israel has a right to defend itself and no amount of rhetoric otherwise can possibly be fair.

Candelle

👏👏👏👏

You are spot on with your post but the usual apologists for terrorists won’t want to hear it.

I haven’t said much as I’m out of the country and the wi fi is a bit erratic to say the least. One thing I have realised is anti semitism is far more prevalent than I thought and it’s very worrying.

"I always want to tell others just how small Israel is, as the common view that it is a huge, mighty country: IRELAND is over three times bigger than Israel. Israel is tiny"

In response to the above

Israel have taken most of Palistinian land so is not a small country. Israel are ocupying Palestine have been for 75 years.
Israel are in control.

Bullldozed Palistinian houses. Soldiers armed with rifles, not a nice place for Palestinians, Israel is an apartheid state.

Israel is the size of Wales.

growstuff

merlotgran

Getting back to the present day…Can anyone tell me why Egypt has a closed border with Gaza? Surely a fellow Muslim country should be offering to help those desperate people trying to flee and have no way out?

Why? Would the UK help out the citizens of another country just because they're Christian?

Actually, I think it would.

Bagpuss123
Dreadful situation. Sorry.

I sometimes wonder when in such circumstances, whether a thread like this does any good whatsoever.
Whether, like you say, the coziness of it, actually hinders.

I have held back from saying much.
In real life situations, when a tragedy happens to someone, saying less is often better than saying more.
I am not sure if that is true as well online, or not.

candelle thank you that was such a good post, which gives a perspective that I and maybe others had forgotten. I hadn’t really, but it was buried deep within my brain, and your post helped bring it back to my memory again. I truly believe that the more we know the better our understanding which gives us the ability to recognise lies and propaganda at times like this.

Although we have a massive show of force by Israel it very difficult and costly to fight in an urban area as countless armies have found over the years. They are going to face booby traps, snipers and suicide bombers, Hamas are well armed and prepared, the big issue is what do you do with over 2million Palestinian civilians that nobody wants