Israel, Hamas and now Hezbollah

Katie59

After WW2 every effort was made to restore normal services to the bombed cities and the defeated country. Sadly that won't happen in Gaza.

Of course it will some refugees will leave the majority will remain and the moderates will have to live alongside their neighbours. After Hamas is defeated moderates on both sides will have to respect each other rights, it happened after WW2, it happened in NI, it has to happen in Israel.

Yes I hope so

tickingbird

Growstuff

Glorianny wasn't excusing the Hamas butchers' actions, but suggesting that one death is as bad as any other.

Please don’t jump in when you aren’t aware of the posts I’m referring to,

I think I've read most of Glorianny's and your posts and I'm capable of judging for myself and I don't respond to board monitors.

growstuff

Eradicating the tunnels might stop Hamas and kill a few thousand Palestinians, but it won't solve anything. The hatred will continue and the killings will become embedded in Palestinian folklore for generations. There are plenty of other groups who will take up the Palestinian cause and feel justified in killing Israelis.

I think this time it really will solve some things.
The hatred would continue in any case, and I think the nightmare-ish terrible murders of men women children and babies in cots by hamas terrorists will certainly become embedded in Jewish memory for many many generations.
I read more details from the traumatised medics and army personnel in Israel about what they found, including children all bound up together and then burnt, as well as many other atrocities.

Katie59

After WW2 every effort was made to restore normal services to the bombed cities and the defeated country. Sadly that won't happen in Gaza.

Of course it will some refugees will leave the majority will remain and the moderates will have to live alongside their neighbours. After Hamas is defeated moderates on both sides will have to respect each other rights, it happened after WW2, it happened in NI, it has to happen in Israel.

Gosh so much to contradict.
Life in Gaza has never been normal, nor have Palestinian rights been respected. Water is limited and rationed, fuel is restricted, supplies are strictly controlled, access to medical care is difficult and if it involves crossing into Israel it is frequently delayed. Women have given birth at checkpoints waiting to go theroughto a hospital.
Israelis receive quite different treatment.
Northern Ireland was a negotiated settlement after years of conflict. No one was bombed into the ground, no organisation was destroyed. It is a fragile peace which depended on each side respecting the other and needed complete reorganisation of official organisations like the RUC which had always been Protestant dominated. I can't see Israel permitting Palestinians such considerations.

I agree with Glorianny. The Palestinians in Gaza are already refugees and they are unable to leave. They have little in the way of resources, everything has to be brought in via Israel or Rafah, they don't even have an airport, Israel bombed it in 2001. 2.2m people will be left with destroyed homes, hospitals, schools etc without a clean water supply and without any fuel or food. Basically it will one massive refugee camp. that is not a recipe for peace.

Maybe Iran would like to take them in? After all, it bankrolled and equipped and encouraged hamas in it’s recent murderous killing spree.

merlotgran

^If/when Israel do go in on the ground it will be with overwhelming force, they will pound the rubble to dust, the only way to prevent this will be for the Palestinians to remove Hamas, it’s their choice.^

How do you propose they do that?

It’s is what they will send in first. Their ordinarty tanks are not suitable.

I don't think Glorianny meant funny, as in funny ha ha. I read it as meaning funny as in, peculiar, odd. People sometimes mistake the Great War as being referred to as some sort of good, jolly time, when in fact it means, large, enormous,huge.

Katie59

If/when Israel do go in on the ground it will be with overwhelming force, they will pound the rubble to dust, the only way to prevent this will be for the Palestinians to remove Hamas, it’s their choice.

Hamas are relying on human shields and international pressure to stop Israel, if that happens Hamas has won.

I don’t think anyone understands what I’m getting at when I asked Katie59 to clarify how the Palestinians are going to prevent Israel going in on the ground by removing Hamas?

I can’t be the only one who thinks this doesn’t make sense.

Israel hasn’t got a problem with innocent Palestinian civilians, it has a huge problem with Hamas.

I hazard a guess that it has operatives inside Gaza gathering data on the whereabouts of Hamas terrorists, also if they are using hostages/civilians as shields.

I hope that Israel can limit the number of civilian casualties as ant death on either side is one too many, apart from the Hamas butchers who I hope will get the full force of the IDF rained down on them.

I don’t know how the Palestinian people could get rid of Hamas either, there hasn’t been an election since the early 2000s,

Glorianny
And the difference between recognising the causes and excusing the killings was explained to you. Hasn't sunk in as it?

Your post of 7/10 23:25 providing links detailing the rapes of Palestinian women by Israeli soldiers. Both links provided were from Islamic sites. Hardly impartial and with no corroborating witnesses or evidence.

Your post of 8/10 10:18
Then work out what is behind these acts which are acts of retribution

Retribution - punishment for a wrongful act that justifies punishment and that the punishment should be proportional to the wrong committed. There was nothing proportional about the death squad that raped, burned alive whole families, killed babies in their cots and even disembowelled some victims. One pregnant woman was beheaded and even her unborn baby was cut from her womb and beheaded.

After your post of 8:10 another poster asked you if thought that was justification for the wrongs of Israel and you declined to answer.

You have posted similar on this thread talking of retribution and I asked you a similar question. Yet again you declined to answer.

Let that sink in

growstuff

I think I've read most of Glorianny's and your posts and I'm capable of judging for myself and I don't respond to board monitors.

However, you just have!

silverlining48

I don’t know how the Palestinian people could get rid of Hamas either, there hasn’t been an election since the early 2000s,

The point I was getting at is that if the Palestinians are unable to stop the Israelis from going in on the ground, which of course they are, there will be no need for them to remove Hamas because the Israelis will have already done it.

I’ll drop it now unless Katie59* would like to clarify things.

GrannyGravy13

Israel hasn’t got a problem with innocent Palestinian civilians, it has a huge problem with Hamas.

I hazard a guess that it has operatives inside Gaza gathering data on the whereabouts of Hamas terrorists, also if they are using hostages/civilians as shields.

I hope that Israel can limit the number of civilian casualties as ant death on either side is one too many, apart from the Hamas butchers who I hope will get the full force of the IDF rained down on them.

Amnesty figures on the number of deaths so far
Since 7 October Israeli forces have launched thousands of air bombardments in the Gaza Strip, killing at least 3,793 people, mostly civilians, including more than 1,500 children, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza. Approximately 12,500 have been injured and more than 1,000 bodies are still trapped beneath the rubble.
No doubt some of those 12500 will die because health provision is now minimal.

merlotgran

Katie59

If/when Israel do go in on the ground it will be with overwhelming force, they will pound the rubble to dust, the only way to prevent this will be for the Palestinians to remove Hamas, it’s their choice.

Hamas are relying on human shields and international pressure to stop Israel, if that happens Hamas has won.

I don’t think anyone understands what I’m getting at when I asked Katie59 to clarify how the Palestinians are going to prevent Israel going in on the ground by removing Hamas?

I can’t be the only one who thinks this doesn’t make sense.

You're not the only one.

Oreo

Maybe Iran would like to take them in? After all, it bankrolled and equipped and encouraged hamas in it’s recent murderous killing spree.

Why should ordinary Palestinians have to go and live in Iran?

Oreo

growstuff

Eradicating the tunnels might stop Hamas and kill a few thousand Palestinians, but it won't solve anything. The hatred will continue and the killings will become embedded in Palestinian folklore for generations. There are plenty of other groups who will take up the Palestinian cause and feel justified in killing Israelis.

I think this time it really will solve some things.
The hatred would continue in any case, and I think the nightmare-ish terrible murders of men women children and babies in cots by hamas terrorists will certainly become embedded in Jewish memory for many many generations.
I read more details from the traumatised medics and army personnel in Israel about what they found, including children all bound up together and then burnt, as well as many other atrocities.

I can't see that it would solve anything.

So what is Israel's exit strategy from this conflict?

Oreo

growstuff

Eradicating the tunnels might stop Hamas and kill a few thousand Palestinians, but it won't solve anything. The hatred will continue and the killings will become embedded in Palestinian folklore for generations. There are plenty of other groups who will take up the Palestinian cause and feel justified in killing Israelis.

I think this time it really will solve some things.
The hatred would continue in any case, and I think the nightmare-ish terrible murders of men women children and babies in cots by hamas terrorists will certainly become embedded in Jewish memory for many many generations.
I read more details from the traumatised medics and army personnel in Israel about what they found, including children all bound up together and then burnt, as well as many other atrocities.

Have you read about the killings of Palestinians in the West Bank by Israeli settlers over the last few days?

growstuff

Oreo

growstuff

Eradicating the tunnels might stop Hamas and kill a few thousand Palestinians, but it won't solve anything. The hatred will continue and the killings will become embedded in Palestinian folklore for generations. There are plenty of other groups who will take up the Palestinian cause and feel justified in killing Israelis.

I think this time it really will solve some things.
The hatred would continue in any case, and I think the nightmare-ish terrible murders of men women children and babies in cots by hamas terrorists will certainly become embedded in Jewish memory for many many generations.
I read more details from the traumatised medics and army personnel in Israel about what they found, including children all bound up together and then burnt, as well as many other atrocities.

Have you read about the killings of Palestinians in the West Bank by Israeli settlers over the last few days?

have you read about the killings of Palestinians in the WB by Israelis.....
People have been calling for a proportional response. Is that what you mean?

My husband seems to think that the hospital that was bombed by Israelis was not hit by them at all - he wonders with so much misinformation about why bother to read any of it? I tend to agree.

Grantanow,

Exactly. The Hamas Terrorist Group must be exterminated.

I imagine Israel has some idea of how large the Hamas regime is, although presumably they would have no idea how many in Gaza have recently since the terrible happenings in Israel.

That should be, have recently joined…

tickingbird

Glorianny
And the difference between recognising the causes and excusing the killings was explained to you. Hasn't sunk in as it?

Your post of 7/10 23:25 providing links detailing the rapes of Palestinian women by Israeli soldiers. Both links provided were from Islamic sites. Hardly impartial and with no corroborating witnesses or evidence.

Your post of 8/10 10:18
Then work out what is behind these acts which are acts of retribution

Retribution - punishment for a wrongful act that justifies punishment and that the punishment should be proportional to the wrong committed. There was nothing proportional about the death squad that raped, burned alive whole families, killed babies in their cots and even disembowelled some victims. One pregnant woman was beheaded and even her unborn baby was cut from her womb and beheaded.

After your post of 8:10 another poster asked you if thought that was justification for the wrongs of Israel and you declined to answer.

You have posted similar on this thread talking of retribution and I asked you a similar question. Yet again you declined to answer.

Let that sink in

So what you are saying is that you don't believe any Islamic site about what has happened to Palestinian women. That's interesting but not really relevant is it? The Palestinians and others certainly believe it.

Explaining why something is happening is not excusing anything. It is an essential part of understanding conflict and how things escalate.

I don't justify any killing. I do try to understand the causes. I do try to see what is happening and how both sides reach their views. I do think Israel has a real problem and is moving rapidly to the right.

I don't think there will be any proper peace in the near future There may be a cease fire but it will not last.