So pleased to see hostages being released.

maddyone well said.👍🏻

Hamas have used the Gazan people including children as human shields. They have built their tunnels and headquarters beneath hospitals and schools and other civic buildings. It's a dreadful situation.

GrannyGravy I'm not surprised that individuals weren't aware of some of the atrocities. Ruth Halperin-Kaddari has recently criticised the silence by international human rights groups about some of the atrocities and her claims are beginning to make the news. Unless we were actually there, all of us have taken our news from second or third hand sources. Unfortunately, there's a propaganda war on both sides and I think people have become cynical if news is reported which doesn't support individuals' opinions.

maddyone

I hate the war, with its casualties and deaths. I hated what Hamas did, with its murderous rampage and it’s tortures.
However I don’t know what Israel was supposed to do. If such an event of murder and torture happened here in the UK, we would rightly expect our government to send in our armed forces until the forces of evil were defeated. That’s what the allies did in WW2. Until the Nazis were defeated.
I agree that when this war is finished, the Israelis will change their government. Netanyahu will be replaced by someone else, but I suspect that the Israelis will still want a government that will defend them vigorously.

But Nazism was killed the day victory was announced. The allies (and later the West German government) had a planned de-Nazification programme, which continued for many years. Not only was any mention of Nazism banned, but there was huge financial and political support for creating a successful state, which would not give people an excuse to act against the state (not always successful, but generally it was).

It really concerns me that Israel will without a doubt win this war, but they have created more problems for the future. I really wonder what Israel intends to do to ensure that there is not even more resentment and hatred. Without co-operation from the surrounding countries and the major powers, Israel and Israelis are never going to be safe.

Ooops! I meant Nazism wasn't killed the day victory was announced.

I have no side in this war. Both sides seem to have reasons they believe in for what they are doing but I’ve just seen a picture on the BBC News channel of a 3 year old orphan in Gaza who has had both his legs blown off along with stories of rape and torture of women and girls in Israel. I just wish with all the advances we’ve made in this world we could find a better way of resolving conflict.

Reading some posts here reminds me of the appeasement of Hitler - before he invaded Poland

The rape and murder committed by Hamas are beyond and understanding. Unforgivable, inexcusable and inhuman behaviour.

Iam64

Reading some posts here reminds me of the appeasement of Hitler - before he invaded Poland

The rape and murder committed by Hamas are beyond and understanding. Unforgivable, inexcusable and inhuman behaviour.

I don't agree that Hamas should be appeased and agree that what they did is beyond comprehension. I hope you didn't think that's what I meant.

Ironically, Israel did appease Hamas before the atrocities. They knew very well that the tunnels existed and that money and resources were being smuggled into Gaza. However, they made a big mistake because they they thought the main threat was the West Bank and people would eventually react to the settlements. Israel sought to drive an even bigger wedge between Hamas and Fatah. In doing so, Israel made a huge mistake.

After WW2, there were people, including many Europeans and Americans, who wanted Germany to be destroyed as an act of revenge. If politicians hadn't seen that Germany could be a bulwark against Communism in Eastern Europe, it could very well have worked out like that.

I know I've written this before, but I want to know what the exit strategy is. Israel cannot destroy five million Palestinians or the millions round the world who support them, so it needs to come up with something.

Growstuff I met with a friend tonight who was brought up in the Middle East, her OH works out there, she said that there's huge gas resources in the med by Gaza and oil in the Palestinian West Bank and that basically this war is all about money. She thinks this is part of Israel's end game, control of Gaza gives control of the gas reserves. She's pretty well connected and not given to flights of fancy. No idea if this is true and not something I've heard before but a quick google agrees about the gas and oil reserves!

I don't think there's any doubt that there's gas off the Gaza coast. It's been talked about before. It wouldn't surprise me if there's oil under the West Bank.

I'm not going to speculate on Israel's end game because I have no idea what it is. All I know is that I fear for the future of the region - and that includes the safety of Israelis. They'll never have security while they're surrounded by people who hate them - and to whom they're giving even more reason to hate them.

foxie48

Growstuff I met with a friend tonight who was brought up in the Middle East, her OH works out there, she said that there's huge gas resources in the med by Gaza and oil in the Palestinian West Bank and that basically this war is all about money. She thinks this is part of Israel's end game, control of Gaza gives control of the gas reserves. She's pretty well connected and not given to flights of fancy. No idea if this is true and not something I've heard before but a quick google agrees about the gas and oil reserves!

🤔

Israel is already an exporter of gas, I thought, as it has huge reserves off its coast. It also has large oil reserves too.

growstuff

I don't think there's any doubt that there's gas off the Gaza coast. It's been talked about before. It wouldn't surprise me if there's oil under the West Bank.

I'm not going to speculate on Israel's end game because I have no idea what it is. All I know is that I fear for the future of the region - and that includes the safety of Israelis. They'll never have security while they're surrounded by people who hate them - and to whom they're giving even more reason to hate them.

Totally agree, just rather shocked to discover Gaza is not without it's own valuable resources. I also can't see that part of the world living in peace and harmony and it saddens me to say that. I now can't even think that a two state solution is viable, I just hope I'm proven wrong. What a dreadful mess for everyone who lives there.

Growstuff, no my appeasement comment wasn’t directed at you.
I share your fears for the future of the region.

I hope I am wrong but I cannot see peace or even a long term truce between Israel & Palestine whoever is governing either Country any time soon.

There will be a truce because Palestine just doesn't have the means to keep fighting and no major player has been dragged into the conflict directly (yet).

However, there won't be peace. Other countries have promised money to rebuild Gaza. Unless Israel kills or expels all Gazans, it's going to have something like an unexploded bomb living in its midst. It might be possible to obliterate Hamas, but it's not going to be possible to prevent Hamas Mark 2, so it would be in Israel's own interest to come up with some kind of appeasement strategy, just as the Allies did with Germany and Japan after WW2.

Germany had to accept stringent conditions after WW2 with authority over it by the USSR, US, UK and France.

Callistemon21

Germany had to accept stringent conditions after WW2 with authority over it by the USSR, US, UK and France.

But none of those countries imposed a blockade on supplies to Germany apart from Russia who tried to take Berlin into their control by stopping supplies crossing their territory. The result was the Berlin airlift when the UK and the USA airlifted supplies into the city. Perhaps if the UK and the USA had done something similar with the Gaza blockade we would have a different situation to the one we now have.

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Germany had to accept stringent conditions after WW2 with authority over it by the USSR, US, UK and France.

But none of those countries imposed a blockade on supplies to Germany apart from Russia who tried to take Berlin into their control by stopping supplies crossing their territory. The result was the Berlin airlift when the UK and the USA airlifted supplies into the city. Perhaps if the UK and the USA had done something similar with the Gaza blockade we would have a different situation to the one we now have.

Whilst in part I agree with you. I find it impossible to believe that Hamas could get all manner of weaponry into Gaza somehow but couldn’t be arsed to get supplies in for its civilians?

Gaza seems to be able to get some supplies unhindered before 7/10

I suppose it depends on how you look at it. I wouldn’t call what the allies did at the end of WW2 appeasement. Germany was completely disarmed and occupied for many years. Of course food and aid was donated because the allies realised that if Germany was left totally destroyed and starving that would create the conditions for further conflict, but the occupation and stringent measures/rules about how many arms were allowed ensured that Germany would not rise again to try to conquer Europe. We also had the UN created, later also the Common Market which became the EU eventually. The Yalta agreement I think laid down the terms of occupation. Germany was encouraged to become a productive nation, and it did. After the Nuremberg trials which eliminated the major protagonists who created the Nazi state, 1000s of people who were involved at a reasonably high level in running the fascist state were tried, many executed, others serving jail terms. Denazification schemes were set up. Obviously many pawns remained committed but the scene was set so that Nazism could not rise again.

This can’t happen with Palestine. I don’t pretend to know what the answer is long term.

I agree with you GrannyGravy.
Gaza was not starving before 7/10.
Hamas took in weapons. They were funded by Iran, it is claimed, and by the money given as aid by other countries. This was apparently spent on building tunnels, reinforcing them with steel, and collecting arms.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Germany had to accept stringent conditions after WW2 with authority over it by the USSR, US, UK and France.

But none of those countries imposed a blockade on supplies to Germany apart from Russia who tried to take Berlin into their control by stopping supplies crossing their territory. The result was the Berlin airlift when the UK and the USA airlifted supplies into the city. Perhaps if the UK and the USA had done something similar with the Gaza blockade we would have a different situation to the one we now have.

Whilst in part I agree with you. I find it impossible to believe that Hamas could get all manner of weaponry into Gaza somehow but couldn’t be arsed to get supplies in for its civilians?

Gaza seems to be able to get some supplies unhindered before 7/10

Undoubtedly the tunnels which would have brought in supplies (and did to rebuild Gaza after the last Israeli attempt to bomb them into the Middle Ages) would have become impassable for many reasons when the bombing began.
And Hamas which probably controlled and enabled the importation would be on a war footing.
It's irrelevant anyway. Blaming the victims isn't acceptable. Would you want to take anything down a tunnel which might be bombed and you buried?

It’s irrelevant anyway. Blaming the victims isn’t acceptable. Would you want to take anything down a tunnel which might be bombed and you buried?

Oh I can 100% blame Hamas, they are not and never have been victims Glorianny

As for hiding in tunnels which might be bombed my Grandparents along with my parents spent a large majority of WW11 in Anderson shelters at the end of their gardens or sheltering on underground station platforms.

GrannyGravy13

^It’s irrelevant anyway. Blaming the victims isn’t acceptable. Would you want to take anything down a tunnel which might be bombed and you buried?^

Oh I can 100% blame Hamas, they are not and never have been victims Glorianny

As for hiding in tunnels which might be bombed my Grandparents along with my parents spent a large majority of WW11 in Anderson shelters at the end of their gardens or sheltering on underground station platforms.

Your grandparents had no choice.
Growing up in one of the most bombed cities in the UK I know how long regeneration takes even when supplies are not restricted. there is no doubt that Israel did not want regeneration in Gaza. They reckoned after the last destruction it would take 80 years. The tunnels made regeneration possible more quickly. So who would you support if you grew up in a country where the supplies which were improving your life were supplied by Hamas and blocked by Israel?
The present generation who have been bombed out of their homes and seen the rest of the world stand by will not be supporters of Israel. Hamas soldiers might be killed, the concept will remain.

maddyone You should do some research on the attitude towards Germany at the end of WW2. There were American politicians who wanted Germany to be left to its fate. There was understandable outrage when the truth of the concentration camps was discovered. Many Europeans felt the same. They wanted Germany to be punished for what it had undoubtedly started.

However, there were others who saw things differently. They realised that Communist Russia was a threat and came up with the idea of strengthening Germany to protect against Communism They also realised that a strong Europe needed Germany to provide a market for American exports. It was "Realpolitik" in action and Germany had massive amounts of financial support from the US.

For people in the 1950s, it was incredible that France and Germany signed the Treaty of Paris in 1951 and became trade allies. They had learnt the lessons about revenge after the First World War.

PS. Apart from East Germany, Germany wasn't occupied for many years. The "Bundesrepublik" was formed in 1949 and the French, UK and US forces who remained weren't there as occupying forces.

Restrictions on Germany's ability to act on its own in armed conflicts didn't stop the country from becoming a member of NATO in 1955 and probably benefited the country because it could concentrate on domestic issues.