6 Day Doctors Strike

Doesn't look like there is a 'haemorrhage' of doctors actually leaving the UK. I was looking at the stats and they're pretty level

ronib

I was treated by a PA in local a&e for conjunctivitis. He was efficient, kind and had very good people skills.

I would suspect that a nurse could have treated you for conjunctivitis, too. So why an overpaid half trained 'medic'?

I have no doubt that they are lovely people but that's irrelevant, isn't it?

Being seen by that PA reduced the wait for Ronib and she received appropriate treatment. Seems like a reasonable use of time and NHS money.

I find with minor eye problems our optician is a much better option or our local chemist not Accident and Emergency

My first port of call for conjunctivitis would be the chemist, certainly not A&E - it’s neither an accident nor an emergency. There’s always a rota of out of hours chemists.

Aveline

Being seen by that PA reduced the wait for Ronib and she received appropriate treatment. Seems like a reasonable use of time and NHS money.

So overpaying a not very highly qualified 'doctor substitute' is a 'reasonable use of ... NHS money', whereas paying actual doctors the wage they deserve is creating a 'black hole'in the economy?

Am I missing something here?

The strikes won't work . They've been offered a reasonable amount, they along with the BMA have made this political, to bring shown an elected Gov. Well their chance to re elect another one will be along soon. If Labour get in I doubt wether they will acceded to 35% demands either. The public have had enough.

Chocolatelovinggran

Freya, you may think as you wish, but the present government espouses a market economy. In a market economy people are paid an appropriate amount and given good conditions of work to attract and retain staff. Are you ok with more and more doctors leaving to places with better pay and conditions? Who will you and I see, then, when we are sick? There's already a significant shortage of GPs and hospital doctors.

Thank goodness there are many Dr's who are still working and giving support to the sick. Not all agree with strike action.
I think a newly qualified Dr, still an apprentice really, a little clinical experience, as a Nurse having to teach them how to cannulate!! Starting at nearly 33,000 a year is not bad. I would think I've had much more insight in working with Dr's of all grades, and by the way they are not known as junior Dr's nowadays, F1 F2 etc. Registrars have always been Registrars, etc. 47,000+ to 52000 +. 8% above the National average.

GSM and MaizieD I was told to attend a&e by receptionist at my surgery.
There were no nurses available that day. I did ask about using a pharmacy but told very firmly not to. Yes I was surprised but as I wasn’t able to say that I didn’t have any foreign objects in my eye, I needed an examination!
It’s a painful condition.

My mother was given penicillin by a newly qualified junior doctor despite all her hospital notes marked with allergic to penicillin. Fortunately she just had a rash all over and not anaphylaxis. The consultant I spoke to said he had told the junior doctor off and after their chat that junior doctor would never ever make that mistake again. He also said August is a bad time to be in hospital as that's when they take on newly qualified doctors.
They need constant supervision and don't deserve more than £14 an hour imo.

Also some assumptions are being made that the PA I saw wasn’t under qualified. I think 4 years degree to masters level plus 2 years specialised training. He wasn’t just newly out of medical school either and knew his stuff. PAs have the option of converting to full medical status I believe.

Freya5

The strikes won't work . They've been offered a reasonable amount, they along with the BMA have made this political, to bring shown an elected Gov. Well their chance to re elect another one will be along soon. If Labour get in I doubt wether they will acceded to 35% demands either. The public have had enough.

What, exactly, have the public 'had enough' of, Freya?

'The public' voted for the governments which have savagely cut public spending ever since 2010, resulting in crumbling services and loss of qualified staff. Having voted for this I can't see why they should be in any way aggrieved about the consequences...

ronib

Also some assumptions are being made that the PA I saw wasn’t under qualified. I think 4 years degree to masters level plus 2 years specialised training. He wasn’t just newly out of medical school either and knew his stuff. PAs have the option of converting to full medical status I believe.

WHY IS THIS PERSON, WITH LESS TRAINING AND QUALIFICATIONS, BEING PAID MORE THAN A FULLY QUALIFIED DOCTOR?

I am shouting because this point is being completely ignored...

Maizie D the BMA is a political body and the public has had enough of them ! Young very entitled leader heading up BM A and this course of action is counterproductive.

You can shout as much as you like.
A PA will never have the earnings of fully trained consultants unless they retrain.
For the medical profession to be so money motivated is a dark day for the Uk.

Still ignoring my question, ronib.

The BMA is a union, just like other unions. I support what they are doing. I support any union which is fighting to get a good deal for its members. The 'man in the street' has nothing else to stand up for him/her, as we can see from the Post Office Scandal which is being discussed elsewhere.

There is a strange double standard in existence where people will bemoan the helplessness of individuals in the face of 'power', but demonise any co-operative attempts to present a united front of the 'helpless' to 'power'.

ronib

You can shout as much as you like.
A PA will never have the earnings of fully trained consultants unless they retrain.
For the medical profession to be so money motivated is a dark day for the Uk.

Are you being deliberately dense, ronib.

Goodness knows if you ever had a job, but if you did and you had to have certain qualifications for doing it, how pleased would you have been if people less qualified than you were paid more than you for doing the same job?

How much does an experienced PA get? I think the new head of the NHS Amanda P advocates different training methods/pathways. I would rather be treated by a PA than a year 1 medic.

You are arriving at some interesting points - I think each category is being rewarded for skill level. Clearly managers have a better understanding of Yr 1s entering hospitals in August than we have!

MaizieD no need to be personal.

I can’t understand why anyone sees £14 an hour as acceptable pay for a doctor.
The behaviourist helping me with one of my dogs charges the going rate -£60 an hour. Dog walkers here charge £15-20 an hour for pack walls, so £80 plus an hour.
Cleaners £20 per hour
Aldi checkout workers earn more than specialist nurses like the one who worked 12 hour shifts plus more when caring for my husband at end of life - her care extended to us.
This isn’t junior doctors trying to bring down a government Freya. It’s a govt determined to wreck the nhs and other public services so we become like America, everything privatised

I can’t take the umbrage and annoyance evidenced on here over the doctors strike, remotely seriously, when there is silence over the gaps in the day on day rosters, and excessive hours worked leading to risk to patients every day of the year.

What NHS says about doctors’ salaries:
www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors

And doctors receive a payment of 20.6% of their salary into their pension fund. I suspect your dog walker and behaviourist are self employed Iam, and are wholly responsible for building up such pension pots as they can afford.

Thanks German shepherds mum. That seems reasonable.

I’m with Maddyone on the use of physician associates. There are a number of issues with their use, particularly as substitutes for GP’s. They are not trained to recognise serious conditions and a number of people have died from misdiagnosis. There is also no regulatory body to oversee them although the govt is now putting something into place.

There is no way a PA can be as good or better than even a newly qualified medic, who, incidentally will have bags of clinical experience by the time they qualify. My own dd graduated in medicine at the start of the pandemic, when she put her life at risk to help others and people were out in the streets applauding her and her fellow health care professionals. Now, they’re greedy and, apparently, don’t care about anyone but themselves. My dd has been told that her cohort of graduates will likely be followed right through their careers to monitor the effects of the pandemic on them, which are likely to be profound.

Here’s a brief article outlining some of the issues with PA’s. www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/13/public-confused-over-physician-associates-working-in-nhs-research-finds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I don't recall people complaining pre 2010 and 'austerity' that junior doctors were overpaid or had an unfair pension advantage.

All they, and other public sector workers, are trying to do is restore their pay to the pre austerity levels, which no-one questioned as being excessive...