Is escalating the conflict by bombing the Houthis the way to go?

This conflict is not going to stop.

Glorianny

^It doesn’t matter how Gazans view hamas, there will be support of course and a few shades inbetween, but we are where we are.^
And there you have it the real reason why the conflict will continue. Why thousands of Palestinians will die. Why Israel will continue to be attacked. Why the conflict will continue long after this bombing has finished.
Because the views of the people in Gaza don't matter, the views of the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories don't matter.
It's a view Israel has always taken. Blocking the path to recognition of a Palestinian state by the UN because to do so would give the Palestinians the right to pursue Israel for war crimes, torture and violations of International law.

Do you always twist words and meanings?
I said what I said about Gazans and hamas as it doesn’t matter what Gazans think of hamas as they have no choice in the matter of who is in charge there now.They were originally voted in by the majority there, but a long time since there were elections.
So in other words what you say has no bearing at all on the truth of the matter.

ronib

This conflict is not going to stop.

This as in Gransnet thread?

Oreo it’s a very sobering thought but even 100 years on from now, there could still be no resolution in Israel.
As for Gnet - well we’re all trying to understand the unfathomable. I guess it’s better than trying not to.

Mollygo

This will probably be unanswered by you Gloriannny but is that because you won’t or you can’t answer. Please don’t divert it into talking about wings. I’m talking about the Hamas who carried out the attacks whichever wing they were from.

Hamas are responsible for starting this particular conflict by killing and raping innocent people including children.

Do you agree?
If not, why not?

Hamas are responsible for taking innocent civilians including children as hostages.
Do you agree?
If not, why not?

Hamas are responsible for building tunnels underneath homes and hospitals to enable them to continue the activities they started on October 7th.
Do you agree?
If not, what do you believe is the purpose of those tunnels

What do you think the Hamas contribution to stopping this war should be?

Incidentally, I don’t excuse the continued killing that is going on by others in this conflict.

What do you think should happen to stop this conflict.

No this conflict began long before the events of 7/10. Although I can see that it suits some people to ignore what has essentially been Israel holding a country under siege since 2014. (and even that wasn't the start).

Hamas killed raped and captured civilians.

Some of the tunnels under Gaza were built by the Israelis when they controlled Gaza. It was part of the building regulations at the time that underground bunkers were built.
Some of the tunnels under Gaza were built by Hamas to enable the rebuilding of Gaza after the last Israeli bombardment, when they said they would (and did) "bomb Gaza back into the Middle Ages". It was estimated after the destruction that at the rate Israel was permitting building materials into Gaza it would take 80 years to rebuild.

If Israel complied with the UN resolutions and withdrew from the Occupied Territories and agreed to a two state solution Hamas would lose support and become virtually redundant. There would still be a small body of extremists but they would be unlikely to gather much support, so would become largely irrelevant. Hamas wouldn't need to 'do' anything it would be unsupported.

To stop the conflict Israel needs to stop bombing Gaza, needs to open the borders and let aid in. Needs to agree to the existence of a Palestinian State and withdraw from the Occupied territories. They need to make reparation to the thousands of Palestinians they have driven from their homes and assist in the rebuilding of Palestine.
A thriving state of Palestine with people who have economic freedom, human rights and prosperity would be far less dangerous. People with rights, people with financial security, people with a homeland do not support terrorism.

So I've answered all your questions.
So now perhaps you can answer mine When should an occupied people stop fighting the country which occupies and controls them?

What should Hamas do?

Great! Glorianny you don’t believe that the actions of Hamas on October 7th caused this particular series of events.
Glorianny what did you/they think would happen when they shot, raped, killed and took hostages?
I wonder

The reason Hamas are not killing thousands of people is because they do not have the wherewithal to do so.

This does not mean that given half a chance they wouldn't do the same.

On the other hand the israeli army would never adopt rape, and the murder and dismemberment of children and the vulnerable as an official military tactic, or even contenance anyone who did.

dismemberment of children and the vulnerable as an official military tactic
I shall assume this was posted in haste and in ignorance. Otherwise it is so distasteful.
There are currently over 1000 child amputees as the result of Israeli bombing. Many will have further amputations because of the lack of medical treatment
www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gazas-child-amputees-face-further-risks-without-expert-care-2024-01-04/

Glorianny

^dismemberment of children and the vulnerable as an official military tactic^
I shall assume this was posted in haste and in ignorance. Otherwise it is so distasteful.
There are currently over 1000 child amputees as the result of Israeli bombing. Many will have further amputations because of the lack of medical treatment
www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gazas-child-amputees-face-further-risks-without-expert-care-2024-01-04/

You are way out of line in your thinking Glorianny, extreme Islamist groups like ISIS, Boko Haram and Hamas do use kidnap, rape and murder as weapons to further their aims and that is exactly what they are doing in Gaza.
They have effectively kidnapped the Palestinians and are using them a human shields in their campaign to destroy Israel.

Glorianny

Mollygo

This will probably be unanswered by you Gloriannny but is that because you won’t or you can’t answer. Please don’t divert it into talking about wings. I’m talking about the Hamas who carried out the attacks whichever wing they were from.

Hamas are responsible for starting this particular conflict by killing and raping innocent people including children.

Do you agree?
If not, why not?

Hamas are responsible for taking innocent civilians including children as hostages.
Do you agree?
If not, why not?

Hamas are responsible for building tunnels underneath homes and hospitals to enable them to continue the activities they started on October 7th.
Do you agree?
If not, what do you believe is the purpose of those tunnels

What do you think the Hamas contribution to stopping this war should be?

Incidentally, I don’t excuse the continued killing that is going on by others in this conflict.

What do you think should happen to stop this conflict.

No this conflict began long before the events of 7/10. Although I can see that it suits some people to ignore what has essentially been Israel holding a country under siege since 2014. (and even that wasn't the start).

Hamas killed raped and captured civilians.

Some of the tunnels under Gaza were built by the Israelis when they controlled Gaza. It was part of the building regulations at the time that underground bunkers were built.
Some of the tunnels under Gaza were built by Hamas to enable the rebuilding of Gaza after the last Israeli bombardment, when they said they would (and did) "bomb Gaza back into the Middle Ages". It was estimated after the destruction that at the rate Israel was permitting building materials into Gaza it would take 80 years to rebuild.

If Israel complied with the UN resolutions and withdrew from the Occupied Territories and agreed to a two state solution Hamas would lose support and become virtually redundant. There would still be a small body of extremists but they would be unlikely to gather much support, so would become largely irrelevant. Hamas wouldn't need to 'do' anything it would be unsupported.

To stop the conflict Israel needs to stop bombing Gaza, needs to open the borders and let aid in. Needs to agree to the existence of a Palestinian State and withdraw from the Occupied territories. They need to make reparation to the thousands of Palestinians they have driven from their homes and assist in the rebuilding of Palestine.
A thriving state of Palestine with people who have economic freedom, human rights and prosperity would be far less dangerous. People with rights, people with financial security, people with a homeland do not support terrorism.

So I've answered all your questions.
So now perhaps you can answer mine When should an occupied people stop fighting the country which occupies and controls them?

A one year old baby being held hostage, you must feel pleased with your friends.

Katie59

Glorianny

dismemberment of children and the vulnerable as an official military tactic
I shall assume this was posted in haste and in ignorance. Otherwise it is so distasteful.
There are currently over 1000 child amputees as the result of Israeli bombing. Many will have further amputations because of the lack of medical treatment
www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gazas-child-amputees-face-further-risks-without-expert-care-2024-01-04/

You are way out of line in your thinking Glorianny, extreme Islamist groups like ISIS, Boko Haram and Hamas do use kidnap, rape and murder as weapons to further their aims and that is exactly what they are doing in Gaza.
They have effectively kidnapped the Palestinians and are using them a human shields in their campaign to destroy Israel.

What's the most important thing when negotiating to free hostages? Keep talking. So why wouldn't Israel talk about the old people Hamas wanted to release?Why did they insist it had to be the women, in spite of the fact that at least one was in the military and was regarded by Hamas as a military prisoner. Why did Israel make such a ruling and walk away.?
What sort of human shields can survive Israeli bombardment.?The hostages may very well lie in the rubble with the Palestinian dead.

Mollygo

Great! Glorianny you don’t believe that the actions of Hamas on October 7th caused this particular series of events.
Glorianny what did you/they think would happen when they shot, raped, killed and took hostages?
I wonder

Of course the event of 7/10 caused this bombing.
That wasn't what you asked you said
Hamas are responsible for starting this particular conflict by killing and raping innocent people including children
The conflict has been going on for years it didn't start on 7/10.

Glorianny the Reuters article like many others is pure Hamas propaganda, the victims are always women and children a designed to increase the humanitarian pressure on Israel.

Hamas could stop fighting and leave Gaza today and the deaths will stop its Hamas that has invaded Israel and they dont care how many Palestinians die in their declared aim to destroy Israel.

Nice wiggle Glorianny.😁

Katie59

Glorianny the Reuters article like many others is pure Hamas propaganda, the victims are always women and children a designed to increase the humanitarian pressure on Israel.

Hamas could stop fighting and leave Gaza today and the deaths will stop its Hamas that has invaded Israel and they dont care how many Palestinians die in their declared aim to destroy Israel.

OMG! The biggest most renowned news agency in the world is now accused of Hamas propaganda.
How desperate can you get.
But I suggest you watch this British-Palestinian surgeon who did over 700 amputations on children as he talks about the children he treated including some with 40% burns.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb_BbezheaU
His distress is apparent.

Oh that’s fact then is it Glorianny? When the Israelis released some of the bodycam footage of the atrocities of 7/10 it was widely condemned as fake by Hamas apologists. This dr may well have a gun at his back for all we know. Hamas are known propagandists.

I don’t know why Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem are still being called the Occupied Territories by some people. Gaza and the West Bank haven’t been occupied for years since the agreement for them to become autonomous regions. They’re not occupied territories, that is simply wrong, but it’s a political decision to call them occupied by some people. The east of Jerusalem is slightly different I think. Anyway, following the actions of Hamas, it wouldn’t surprise me if Gaza and even the West Bank were to remain occupied for some time now. But they were not occupied before!

OK, this phase of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict started on 7th october when Hamas militia attcked civilian settlements with instructions nfrom their leaders to murder, rape, dismember and/or kidnap civilians living in border areas. This included a group of youngsters at a music festival.

The Geneva Conventions of War ratified by almost every country in 1949 state quite clearly
Civilians are to be protected from murder, torture or brutality, and from discrimination on the basis of race, nationality, religion or political opinion. The Hamas attack egregiously chose to ignore that rule. Hamas chose that group to attack.

Murder - Hamas are guilty
Torture - Hamas are guilty
Brutality - Hamas are guilty
Discrimination on basis of race - Hamas are guilty
Discrimination on basis of nationality - Hamas are guilty
Discrimination on basis of religion - Hamas are guilty
Discrimination on basis of political opinion - Hamas are guilty

So Hamas committed war crimes on seven counts on 7/10

maddyone

Murder - Hamas are guilty
Torture - Hamas are guilty
Brutality - Hamas are guilty
Discrimination on basis of race - Hamas are guilty
Discrimination on basis of nationality - Hamas are guilty
Discrimination on basis of religion - Hamas are guilty
Discrimination on basis of political opinion - Hamas are guilty

So Hamas committed war crimes on seven counts on 7/10

All of those are crimes which Israel has been guilty of since it occupied Palestinian land.
It has had numerous UN resolutions passed against it all of which it has refused to comply with.
It was described by Amnesty International as an apartheid state.
How can you expect one organisation to comply with International law when its enemy obviously doesn't?
Hamas are probably guilty and the perpetrators if they can be found should be arrested and brought to trial.
But so should the government of Israel which can easily be identified and brought to justice.
I've asked this question many times and never get an answer. Should a people submit to occupation or do they have a right to resist the oppressor?

maddyone

I don’t know why Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem are still being called the Occupied Territories by some people. Gaza and the West Bank haven’t been occupied for years since the agreement for them to become autonomous regions. They’re not occupied territories, that is simply wrong, but it’s a political decision to call them occupied by some people. The east of Jerusalem is slightly different I think. Anyway, following the actions of Hamas, it wouldn’t surprise me if Gaza and even the West Bank were to remain occupied for some time now. But they were not occupied before!

The International Court of Justice (ICJ),[3] the UN General Assembly,[4] and the UN Security Council all regard Israel as the occupying power for the territories.[5] UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk called Israel's occupation "an affront to international law".[6] The Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that Israel is holding the West Bank under "belligerent occupation".[7] According to the Sasson Report, the Supreme Court of Israel, with a variety of different justices sitting, has repeatedly stated for more than four decades that international law applies to Israel's presence in the West Bank.
Not just "some people" then.
Under International Law they are the Occupied Palestinian Territories

tickingbird

Oh that’s fact then is it Glorianny? When the Israelis released some of the bodycam footage of the atrocities of 7/10 it was widely condemned as fake by Hamas apologists. This dr may well have a gun at his back for all we know. Hamas are known propagandists.

How dare you say such things about this brave man? (who was in anycase speaking in London on his return to the UK). He spent 40 days working in appalling conditions. Of the children he treated 120 had no living family and some of those children were too young to even say their names. His distress is evident when he tries to speak,

Gloryanny Where is the evidence that the Israelis order their troops quite specifically to go out and attack innocent civilians, and only civilians, raping women and female children beheading babies and small children and dismemebering them?

This is what Hamas did.

Do you realise that your support for Hamas on this thread, your refusal to acknowledge that they did any of the things they did and that what they did was outside any rule of war has done more for the Israeli cause than anything else I have read?

To watch you prevaricate, wriggle, disassemble and ignore all reasonable questions, does your cause more damage than an honest admission that you think that what Hamas has done is entirely reasonable.

If you blindly support a cause, right or wrong, and those supporting your cause do, you compare with the Israelis, where many people who support their cause also have the honesty to stand and say that they think that their side has gone too far in what they have done.

But on the other hand faced with an enemy thaat puts its command posts under hospitals, school, medical centres etc, do they have a choice.

Can you name any locations where Israeli forces have placed their military forces close to or in humanitarian and educational establishments as a matter of policy?

If you support your cause stand up and defend what it has done and stop trying to weasle word your way out of it.

Of course Israeli troops are not in hospitals or schools in Gaza they have bombed them all. There were 36 hospitals in Gaza only 16 are still functioning and only 3 of those are undamaged
www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/19/gaza-war-indirect-casualties-mount-health-service-decimated#:~:text=Of%20the%2036%20hospitals%20in,and%20lack%20almost%20all%20medication.

This is the 4th bombardment of Gaza since 2005. The purpose remains as was said by Israel in 2014 to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages and to prevent the establishment of a viable and successful Palestinian state. Why? Because once a Palestinian state is accepted as a full member of the UN it can charge Israel with the crimes it has committed.

If you bomb one of the most densely populated areas in the world your victims will be civilians. If the population of that country is mostly very young the majority of the victims will be children.

I am not trying to "weasel word" my way out of anything.
I present facts. You may not like them. They may not fit your perception of Israel, but they are facts.

I do not support Hamas. I support the Palestinian people.