Katharine Birbalsingh – the head teacher of Michaela Community School.

Each religion would not necessarily demand use of a room - Christians don’t insist on praying at specified times of day or together, you can indulge in private prayer anywhere, so a Christian could pray sitting on a corner without anyone knowing - should that be banned ? There is a lot of Islamophobia on here - ( “they should go back where they came from “ etc) In my book religion is a lot of mumbo jumbo but a lot of people take comfort from it and it has a cultural significance for many. We can’t ignore that.

The state schools here have no provision for any religion and do not have any prayers, religious songs or anything connected with religion. There are plenty of Christian, Moslem and Jewish private schools if that is what parents want. They tend to be quite expensive,though.

vegansrock

Each religion would not necessarily demand use of a room - Christians don’t insist on praying at specified times of day or together, you can indulge in private prayer anywhere, so a Christian could pray sitting on a corner without anyone knowing - should that be banned ? There is a lot of Islamophobia on here - ( “they should go back where they came from “ etc) In my book religion is a lot of mumbo jumbo but a lot of people take comfort from it and it has a cultural significance for many. We can’t ignore that.

It wouldn’t need to be a religious group. Children and parents are quick to spot special provision for others and to ask why their children are not offered the same. e.g. They, like you, might see religion as a lot of mumbo jumbo, but might see it as an opportunity to be indoors, that others are given and from which they are excluded, especially in this cold wet weather.
I’ve seen that sort of thing happen e.g. where a diabetic child is given a snack that isn’t offered to others.

From the perspective of someone who went through faith based schools, in retrospect a lot of what should have been teaching time was given over to religion. For example, in catholic schools, preparing pupils for First Holy Communion and then Confirmation a year or so later, both rites of passage. This entailed learning and then parroting the catechism, a complete waste of time and no use to man nor beast, unlike the useful parroting of times tables a useful tool to take through life. Faith schools are there for what parents believe in, a child can't make an informed choice and therefore a large part of it is brainwashing. Richard Dawkins in his God Delusion book cited catholicism and Islam the worst examples of that. I'm inclined to agree although my thoughts are also religion is even more deeply ingrained with the latter. I can't imagine amongst my peer group ever wanting a prayer room, having to attend masses during school time was more than enough! I'm not entirely against religious schools, I sent my children to a CofE junior school, where there was altogether a much lighter touch. I also think it's a good thing to be taught about comparative religions and the way they are sometimes a lynch pin in different societies, but again, a dispassionate approach needs to be adopted, because as we well know, religion in many instances is not always a force for good and have many downsides.

I think Katherine Birbalsingh appears to have the interests of her pupils at heart and also seems to be doing much to raise standards. I think there is a need for secularism in schools and not making adherents to any particular religion a special case..

TerriBull

I think Katherine Birbalsingh appears to have the interests of her pupils at heart and also seems to be doing much to raise standards. I think there is a need for secularism in schools and not making adherents to any particular religion a special case..

Agree.

The judicial review hearing was told that the ban had made the child feel guilty and unhappy... it had changed how she felt about being a Muslim in the UK.

In my opinion, and I make no apology for it, a minority of parents are playing the "Islamophobia" card in order to impose their agenda on the school. They know jolly well that we are all afraid of being labelled thus.

The ban was introduced "against a backdrop of events including violence, intimidation and appalling racial harassment of our teachers. Our decision restored calm and order to the school."

All religions have their zealots, their 'activists', who want to obtrude their rules / beliefs on others.

It would be interesting to know how all the other Muslim students felt about 'being a Muslim in the UK'. Under the headship of KB, the Muslim intake at the school has increased by 50%, because of the positive experience of Muslim pupils it is reported.

Can't people see what is happening here?

Rosie51

VioletSky

There are of course Muslim schools in the UK but we do not expect people to move their jobs and homes in order to attend Christian schools and unless we are willing to say Christians should not attend secular schools then we should not be saying it about Muslims

Are we willing to say Christians should not attend secular schools?

I don't think anyone has said Muslims shouldn't attend secular schools have they? If I'm wrong perhaps you could quote the posters who have said this.
The general consensus seems to be if you apply to a strictly secular school do not subsequently demand to have religious observation incorporated into school policy. A bit like joining a vegan organisation but then demanding they serve bacon and eggs at the community brunch!

👏👏👏

VioletSky

The children just want a small space to pray, with an expectation that they aren't bullied for doing so

The same way a Christian in a secular school may want to pray before eating, with the expectation they aren't bullied for doing so.

And I work in a secular school, we have assemblies given by a multitude of religions, we learn about a multitude of holidays and the children clearly understand that different people have different holidays and religions and are very interested in learning about and celebrating that fact

Children are amazing and accepting unless a stronger influence closes those doors for them

The children just want a small space to pray, with an expectation that they aren't bullied for doing so

I think you have misunderstood what happened.

The pupil(s) demanding a special room to pray and special consideration being made towards them in a non-religious school were the ones who were bullying other girls and teachers.

A bit like joining a vegan organisation but then demanding they serve bacon and eggs at the community brunch exactly Rosie.

The bullying and intimidating behaviour has been enacted by a minority of Muslim pupils against non Muslim staff and pupils, as well as those Muslin pupils who aren't considered to be 'Muslim enough'.

If this school is forced to make this provision it will be giving into bullying. What sort of example is that to set?

Atheism is not taught, critical thinking is

If it were Christians bullying would we be happy for a school to ban all Christian pupils from praying?

Another example, both Muslims and Jewish people don't eat pork, would you be happy for no alternative to be provided for their school meals because the school is "secular"?

You don't get to cherry pick what secular should mean or who has freedom to honour their religious practices

And if you start doing so you are depriving children of an education that is free from politics and religion and undoing the good work schools do in learning about tolerance and respect

This seems to be. Trojan horse being wheeled in.
Testing the waters comes to mind.

I agree with TerriBull Dickens Callistemon21 Urmstongran and all other posters who can see this situation for what it is.

They bring their own food, nothing is provided here. No issues.

No one is banning anyone from praying VS and you seem to be conveniently overlooking who are responsible for the bullying and intimidation.

I do agree with you that no one has the right to cherry pick and for those who wish to honour their religious practices, if they can't be accommodated in secular schools, there are faith schools available.

I agree Urms and hopefully the High Court will see this for what it is too.

VioletSky Another example, both Muslims and Jewish people don't eat pork, would you be happy for no alternative to be provided for their school meals because the school is "secular"?

Have you missed the bit where this school has brought in a no meat policy because having meat meals was considered divisive? Pupils that would like meat based meals have to be vegetarian so the meals are equally available to all. That's inclusive.

VioletSky

*Atheism is not taught, critical thinking is*

If it were Christians bullying would we be happy for a school to ban all Christian pupils from praying?

Another example, both Muslims and Jewish people don't eat pork, would you be happy for no alternative to be provided for their school meals because the school is "secular"?

You don't get to cherry pick what secular should mean or who has freedom to honour their religious practices

And if you start doing so you are depriving children of an education that is free from politics and religion and undoing the good work schools do in learning about tolerance and respect

If it were Christians bullying would we be happy for a school to ban all Christian pupils from praying?

I don't think you understand what happened and why the ban was introduced.

The bullying, abuse, threats and intimidation were directed at the staff and other students - by the (minority, let it be said) Muslim pupils.

That is why KB introduced the ban - to restore order in the school.

If it were Christians bullying would we be happy for a school to ban all Christian pupils from praying?

You seem to be obsessed with the idea that this is a Christian v Muslim issue. It isn't. So the answer to your whataboutery question is yes. I suspect KB would institute a ban on any religious group who were attempting to bully and intimidate others.

You don't get to cherry pick what secular should mean or who has freedom to honour their religious practices.

I think we all understand what secular means. KB has made the school's ethos and values quite clear. Both parents and pupils sign a contract at the beginning of the year.

And if you start doing so you are depriving children of an education that is free from politics and religion and undoing the good work schools do in learning about tolerance and respect

Eh? That really makes no sense whatsoever. I think you should read more widely on that school's curriculum, its values and its ethos.

Rosie51 For a long time, our primary and presumably others has had opportunity for children’s dietary needs e.g. gluten free, lactose intolerant etc. to be taken care of, and the parents select meals from a menu so are able to avoid foods the children don’t eat, whether for religious or other reasons.

Even some of the Christian Bretheren children who eat their lunch in a parent’s car rather than eating with those not in the Lord’s Family, had a school lunch choice which they took out in containers. (Other children were granted the same option, but the parents/carers soon found it too inconvenient.)

Perhaps that would be a way round this.
Parents should arrive at school at break times to let all their children sit in their cars to pray.

Interesting about who was doing the bullying. If they keep that bullying up they, like any other children, could earn themselves a missed break, an internal exclusion or even an external exclusion. Plenty of time then to pray for forgiveness for their unkindness.

From what I’m read about this case, there was bulling from both sides - harassment from other children and from outsiders towards those who were praying in the playground, kneeling on their blazers, and harassment from some Muslim pupils towards other pupils to,try and force them to join in. Both these activities could be stopped by allowing those small number of Muslim pupils to have a small space in an empty classroom at lunchtime. .

The 1944 Education Act requires an assembly for worship. When I was at school all the CofE kids went to assembly and the 'funnies' - Jews, Catholics, Apostolics and others - waited in the dining hall and came in just for announcements. Personally, I would ditch all religious observance in schools and abolish faith schools.

CoolCoco

From what I’m read about this case, there was bulling from both sides - harassment from other children and from outsiders towards those who were praying in the playground, kneeling on their blazers, and harassment from some Muslim pupils towards other pupils to,try and force them to join in. Both these activities could be stopped by allowing those small number of Muslim pupils to have a small space in an empty classroom at lunchtime. .

Both these activities could be stopped by allowing those small number of Muslim pupils to have a small space in an empty classroom at lunchtime. .

Isn't that acceding to the demands of those who use bullying and intimidation to get what they want though?

So you give a small space to a group who've demanded it for their religious ritual. Do you believe this will stop those who have been bullying them? And will it stop this small group from continuing to intimidate others of their faith who they appear to think should be joining them in order to be "better" Muslims? There certainly would have to be someone 'on the door' so to speak to monitor the room.

And will some other pupils from other faiths decide that they, too, should also have some dispensation given towards their religion? Maybe one or two might even decide that bullying tactics are the way to go to get what you want, too? They might also mount a legal challenge to the school if they are refused.

Then the whole ethos of the school is derailed. KB wants the school to be inclusive with no one group having priority over the other, they are all supposed to be working towards the greater good with the accent on hard work, striving, discipline and obeying the rules of the school. It appears to work for most of the students.

If you join a club or organisation that has rules for its members - do you sign the contract or agreement and then insist that the rules be changed to accommodate your wants and needs, or do you accept that the rules are there for a reason, and that you have agreed to them before joining and that you have the same duties and obligations as everyone else?

CoolCoco

From what I’m read about this case, there was bulling from both sides - harassment from other children and from outsiders towards those who were praying in the playground, kneeling on their blazers, and harassment from some Muslim pupils towards other pupils to,try and force them to join in. Both these activities could be stopped by allowing those small number of Muslim pupils to have a small space in an empty classroom at lunchtime. .

My DC were at school with Muslim children many years ago (in fact they were our neighbours and the children all played together too) as we lived in a diverse, multi-cultural area.
We parents were often in the school helping with various activities.

There were several children of different faiths at their secular school and not once do I remember ever seeing a child kneeling to pray in the playground or elsewhere. There was no multi-faith prayer room either.
This seems to be a fairly new phenomenon and, if parents are really keen for their children to observe their religion in a strict manner, surely they should choose a faith school?

It seems to be a deliberate attempt by one sector to impose certain views and conditions on others. I hope common sense prevails and Katharine Birbalsingh wins the case.

Grantanow

The 1944 Education Act requires an assembly for worship. When I was at school all the CofE kids went to assembly and the 'funnies' - Jews, Catholics, Apostolics and others - waited in the dining hall and came in just for announcements. Personally, I would ditch all religious observance in schools and abolish faith schools.

In accordance with DfE legislation, all schools must hold a daily act of collective worship that must be 'wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character

But most do not.
I think it is largely ignored.

CoolCoco

From what I’m read about this case, there was bulling from both sides - harassment from other children and from outsiders towards those who were praying in the playground, kneeling on their blazers, and harassment from some Muslim pupils towards other pupils to,try and force them to join in. Both these activities could be stopped by allowing those small number of Muslim pupils to have a small space in an empty classroom at lunchtime. .

This is correct and the logical approach

We should tackle this issue of the bullying itself, not pick a side

How are you going to tackle this particular issue of bullying Violetsky?

Our next door neighbours are Muslim, one of their children and one of ours went through senior school together. Not once did they feel the need to pray during the school day.

They observed and still do observe Ramadan and all Islamic calendar dates.

This fiasco is Muslim students pushing for something that they and their parents knew was not available when they enrolled in this excellent school.

I put it in the same category as the assembled group of Muslim men praying in the grounds of Westminster Abbey just before Christmas.

I imagine if a group of Catholic, Jewish or C of E gathered for prayers on the grounds of a mosque it would be viewed in a very dim light and those praying would be accused of Islamophobia.

Callistemon21

Grantanow

The 1944 Education Act requires an assembly for worship. When I was at school all the CofE kids went to assembly and the 'funnies' - Jews, Catholics, Apostolics and others - waited in the dining hall and came in just for announcements. Personally, I would ditch all religious observance in schools and abolish faith schools.

In accordance with DfE legislation, all schools must hold a daily act of collective worship that must be 'wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character

But most do not.
I think it is largely ignored.

I think the daily tutor group registration sort of passes for this?