So, our Home Office celebrates World Hajib Day ??

TerriBull I also find the idea of taking a day to celebrate an aspect of any religious attire bordering on the preposterous but people do all sorts of things that I find preposterous. I don't believe in the "after life" or the Holy Trinity, I don't believe in Kelpies tbh I'm struggling to believe in "Democracy" ATM as it seems to give us such poor leaders but then I pour a glass of wine, take a deep breath and try to believe that most of us are good people, regardless of our religion (or lack of it), place of birth or upbringing and we care about the same basic things It's the only thing that keeps me sane (well almost).

So why not have a FGM day?
It’s the same thing……. men/religion suppressing women.

I think both ways need to change.
Both are to do with pleasing men.

Too much covered up or too little.

ask Teenage girls to dress the way they want to and to be brave enough to use clothing as expression of themselves.

Not to do with Western Fashions, nor to do with religious conservatism.
and not to do with pleasing men.

It’s not an organisation though, it’s a network for people of a particular faith who work in the civil service, and those networks exist for all major faiths, so they will all do their own specific celebration within their own network.

Sago

So why not have a FGM day?
It’s the same thing……. men/religion suppressing women.

i agree

Oh well, there we have it

Teach me to look into things properly and not poke my nose into business that doesn't concern me lol

Ilovecheese

In this country it is a choice, which we should allow.
But I don't think that putting the onus on women to control men's sexual urges is anything to celebrate.

The thing is Ilovecheese, is it a choice? For some, yes, but there are women who are still forced to wear hijab through social and parental pressure. If they didn't they would be ostracised or worse. Don't forget, there is female genital mutilation and forced marriages in this country as well as acid attacks.

Don't think for a moment that because they are living in the UK they are free to live their lives like their western peers. It is not as simple as that.

Casdon

It’s not an organisation though, it’s a network for people of a particular faith who work in the civil service, and those networks exist for all major faiths, so they will all do their own specific celebration within their own network.

Hopefully not on taxpayers money though Casdon! I’d be very surprised if this was all done in their own free time. Let civil servants concentrate on the main job in hand. Not silly distractions.

Glorianny highlights some very interesting arguments around female equality or feminism and how females present themselves through clothing and these have merit.
I will be interested to read what looks like a very interesting article.
My instant reaction to discussions in this particular arena is that any issue of coercion, whether to wear a boob tube or a burka, is equally unacceptable.
Notwithstanding that a burka, for instance , certainly neutralises the male gaze , I instinctively recoil from a solution where women have to wear armour to function comfortably and normally in society , whereas men don't.
If I had a well thought through solution , which I probably don't , it would shift the responsibility to male behaviour to treat women respectfully , regardless of their clothing and vice-versa from women towards men.
Perhaps the law should be that we should all dress moderately , but that would be coercion as well.
I think I hold these views more in the context of liberal western societies . I think traditional , for example Islamic Societies, function differently and I'm not sure that I should comment on and/or criticise their normal social customs , in their own countries. Not my business ??

If women want to wear the hijab they should be allowed to. If they want to celebrate wearing it they should do. Women dictating to other women what they may wear is no more acceptable than men doing so. Linking the wearing with FGM which is not a muslim practice but a cultural one is ignorant and unacceptable.
One is mutilation. The other is simply choosing a different form of dress. Permit women that choice.

Urmstongran

Casdon

It’s not an organisation though, it’s a network for people of a particular faith who work in the civil service, and those networks exist for all major faiths, so they will all do their own specific celebration within their own network.

Hopefully not on taxpayers money though Casdon! I’d be very surprised if this was all done in their own free time. Let civil servants concentrate on the main job in hand. Not silly distractions.

This explains why there are networks and how they work.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/faith-and-belief-toolkit/the-civil-service-faith-and-belief-toolkit

I hope you enjoy the article Labradora. I think the concepts that we have of muslim woman have been heavily influenced and edited by colonialism. The education they had before western intervention and their roles in society were very different.
I remember the guide in the Alhambra pointing to a wall painting of two women playing chess, they were not veiled.

Glorianny

If women want to wear the hijab they should be allowed to. If they want to celebrate wearing it they should do. Women dictating to other women what they may wear is no more acceptable than men doing so. Linking the wearing with FGM which is not a muslim practice but a cultural one is ignorant and unacceptable.
One is mutilation. The other is simply choosing a different form of dress. Permit women that choice.

Glorianny, please read my post above. I know that FGM is a cultural practice but so is wearing the hijab. The Quran only advises women to take a scarf and cover their chests. Islam, as well as many other religions, is blurred with cultural practices and most of those have been dictated by men. It is a patriarchal world.

As I said in my previous post, wearing the hijab as a choice is not always the case and simplifies the matter. An islamic woman living in the UK does not necessarily have the same choices as her western peers. Violence against women and girls in the Islamic, and also Hindu communities, is a strong possibility where they eschew tradition. Forced marriages, underage marriages, abduction and acid attacks do happen.

I have no objection to women wearing whatever they wish. Their body, their choice but is it?

Glorianny one of my best girlfriends is Muslim, my nearest neighbours are Muslim.

My opinions are in no way related to ^colonialism*

flappergirl

Glorianny

If women want to wear the hijab they should be allowed to. If they want to celebrate wearing it they should do. Women dictating to other women what they may wear is no more acceptable than men doing so. Linking the wearing with FGM which is not a muslim practice but a cultural one is ignorant and unacceptable.
One is mutilation. The other is simply choosing a different form of dress. Permit women that choice.

Glorianny, please read my post above. I know that FGM is a cultural practice but so is wearing the hijab. The Quran only advises women to take a scarf and cover their chests. Islam, as well as many other religions, is blurred with cultural practices and most of those have been dictated by men. It is a patriarchal world.

As I said in my previous post, wearing the hijab as a choice is not always the case and simplifies the matter. An islamic woman living in the UK does not necessarily have the same choices as her western peers. Violence against women and girls in the Islamic, and also Hindu communities, is a strong possibility where they eschew tradition. Forced marriages, underage marriages, abduction and acid attacks do happen.

I have no objection to women wearing whatever they wish. Their body, their choice but is it?

I have no objection to women wearing whatever they wish. Their body, their choice but is it?

If your parents dressed you in a hijab at age 4 or 5 onward - how much would your 'choice' in later life be dictated by cultural / family tradition as opposed to freedom of choice?

Patriarchy runs deep in religion - all religion as far as I can see.

When men accept the concept of modesty (yes, I know some do) and we have a day dedicated to an item of clothing they wear, then I'll applaud the hijab.

Dickens 👏👏👏

flappergirl

Glorianny

If women want to wear the hijab they should be allowed to. If they want to celebrate wearing it they should do. Women dictating to other women what they may wear is no more acceptable than men doing so. Linking the wearing with FGM which is not a muslim practice but a cultural one is ignorant and unacceptable.
One is mutilation. The other is simply choosing a different form of dress. Permit women that choice.

Glorianny, please read my post above. I know that FGM is a cultural practice but so is wearing the hijab. The Quran only advises women to take a scarf and cover their chests. Islam, as well as many other religions, is blurred with cultural practices and most of those have been dictated by men. It is a patriarchal world.

As I said in my previous post, wearing the hijab as a choice is not always the case and simplifies the matter. An islamic woman living in the UK does not necessarily have the same choices as her western peers. Violence against women and girls in the Islamic, and also Hindu communities, is a strong possibility where they eschew tradition. Forced marriages, underage marriages, abduction and acid attacks do happen.

I have no objection to women wearing whatever they wish. Their body, their choice but is it?

There are feminist scholars studying the Quran who have decided to wear the hijab. You are entitled to your beliefs but so are they.
Islam has a long and interesting history and many women in it were educated and empowered before women in the west.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny one of my best girlfriends is Muslim, my nearest neighbours are Muslim.

My opinions are in no way related to ^colonialism*

Read the article then consider if your views are as informed as you imagine.

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny one of my best girlfriends is Muslim, my nearest neighbours are Muslim.

My opinions are in no way related to ^colonialism*

Read the article then consider if your views are as informed as you imagine.

Thank you for your advice, but I know where my views come from.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny one of my best girlfriends is Muslim, my nearest neighbours are Muslim.

My opinions are in no way related to ^colonialism*

Read the article then consider if your views are as informed as you imagine.

Thank you for your advice, but I know where my views come from.

Well obviously not from women who consider colonialism changed their society.

Casdon

Urmstongran

Casdon

It’s not an organisation though, it’s a network for people of a particular faith who work in the civil service, and those networks exist for all major faiths, so they will all do their own specific celebration within their own network.

Hopefully not on taxpayers money though Casdon! I’d be very surprised if this was all done in their own free time. Let civil servants concentrate on the main job in hand. Not silly distractions.

This explains why there are networks and how they work.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/faith-and-belief-toolkit/the-civil-service-faith-and-belief-toolkit

How did I manage to work for the Civil Service for all those years and yet be unaware of these networks? 🤔
Perhaps it's a London-centric thing.
Or perhaps we were just so very busy all the time.

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny one of my best girlfriends is Muslim, my nearest neighbours are Muslim.

My opinions are in no way related to ^colonialism*

Read the article then consider if your views are as informed as you imagine.

Thank you for your advice, but I know where my views come from.

Well obviously not from women who consider colonialism changed their society.

As one of my girlfriends had her family torn apart in the partition of India, I am aware of colonialism both its advantages and disadvantages.

Glorianny

flappergirl

Glorianny

If women want to wear the hijab they should be allowed to. If they want to celebrate wearing it they should do. Women dictating to other women what they may wear is no more acceptable than men doing so. Linking the wearing with FGM which is not a muslim practice but a cultural one is ignorant and unacceptable.
One is mutilation. The other is simply choosing a different form of dress. Permit women that choice.

Glorianny, please read my post above. I know that FGM is a cultural practice but so is wearing the hijab. The Quran only advises women to take a scarf and cover their chests. Islam, as well as many other religions, is blurred with cultural practices and most of those have been dictated by men. It is a patriarchal world.

As I said in my previous post, wearing the hijab as a choice is not always the case and simplifies the matter. An islamic woman living in the UK does not necessarily have the same choices as her western peers. Violence against women and girls in the Islamic, and also Hindu communities, is a strong possibility where they eschew tradition. Forced marriages, underage marriages, abduction and acid attacks do happen.

I have no objection to women wearing whatever they wish. Their body, their choice but is it?

There are feminist scholars studying the Quran who have decided to wear the hijab. You are entitled to your beliefs but so are they.
Islam has a long and interesting history and many women in it were educated and empowered before women in the west.

Yes Glorianny, I am very well aware there are feminist Scholars who wear hijab through choice. There are also many women in Islam who are not Scholars and who wear it through choice. I also know a great deal about the long and interesting history of Islam, much of which is to be admired.

Absolutely nowhere in either of my posts have I suggested that women should not be able to choose. Women everywhere, not just in Islam.

Neither am I expressing "beliefs", I am expressing facts. There are many women who do not have the choice and who follow traditions because they dare not do otherwise. I know this to be the case.

Most of the Catholic Nuns at my school wore habits although the dresses were modern (just below knee length). This was progress from when my older sister attended the same school years before. Senior Nuns were still wearing the full length garb then - hence they got called penguins.

Many women including film stars and our Queen and Hilda Ogden wore headscarves when out and prior to that hats were common.
Why the obsession with what women do with bits of fabric and the bits that they cover or not as the case may be.
As long as there is free will being exercised in Britain, it is really naff all to do with anyone but the wearer.imo

Most single deity religions have/do suppress women and have a degree of misogyny as part of their culture.

Tbh - and this is a purely personal opinion based on not a single shred of evidence, but I think that it has simply become fashionable to wear the various forms of veil by female Islamic followers. I’m sure years ago that Muslim women wore a simple head covering, much like Christian women always covered their hair and dressed modestly when attending church. I’m sure this will change over time.

We take pride in this country in allowing freedom of religious expression in the way we dress etc. France takes another view - perhaps our celebrating Islamic dress is cocking a snook at France😄😄

Women in the U.K. have still not won complete equality in various fields - so I’m not sure we have too much to crow about.