Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Glorianny (I won't do nested quotes). It would have been more helpful to have an answer in your own words, but never mind. The legal position says (in summary) that in order to exclude a transwoman from a women's space there has to be a legitimate aim, which must be objectively justified. Both of those terms seem to rely on the Clapham omnibus test, which is not much help on a Friday night in a city pub, which is where my friend was assaulted by a man in the Ladies, in the days when men were not allowed in. As I have said before, it was only because the fact that a man was spotted going in there that the alarm was raised and he didn't manage to rape her.

Also, women's spaces are not protected by that, unless you believe that men can become women just by saying so. How is it ok to exclude men who say they are men from women's spaces but not men who say they are women? Is it all about the magic words?

So basically, there are no protections for women. Transwomen, yes - women, no.

Why can't I identify as a First Class traveller and have access to the FC airport lounges and turn left on the plane? Is it just about the ticket, or is it that having a FC ticket means that the traveller has paid for the privileges, and it would be both unreasonable and unfair to let anyone, regardless of what they'd paid, identify their way in because they fancy it?

This hate crime law will cause more problems than it solves. Already the police are overwhelmed with people reporting hate crime. It will take a mammoth effort to sort through them and decide which are truly crimes. They are already understaffed so other crimes will have to join the queue.
I also believe it will lead to more hatred if people report colleagues, neighbours or others. There is bound to be retaliation.
The fact that misogyny has been left out will also lead to resentment.

Rosie51

Glorianny How dare you question my compassion, I have total sympathy with anyone who makes such a discovery. It happens to others not just athletes and is as equally astounding, didn't you know? Should that really mean they be allowed to carry on denying any number of women their rightful success? You have no thought let alone compassion for the athletes who have dedicated their lives to training only to be beaten by somebody with an unfair advantage. For some this will mean college scholarships lost, their only path to further education. Does that not concern you?

Suicide is always a tragedy, but should the threat of it allow someone to override equity to others? In case you didn't know DSDs occur in all races and both sexes, it is not just a condition that affects black people. It's not discrimination against black women it's placing people in their correct competing category, they can carry on living as women in all other areas of life.

As I said if you don't want to listen to black women that is up to you.

Galaxy

Oh and if womens spaces are protected but its impossible to identify sex, then those spaces are meaningless. Say Boris Johnson wants to access a womans changing room, how are we supposed to decide if he can, after all we cant know what sex he is.

Oh and if womens spaces are protected but its impossible to identify sex, then those spaces are meaningless

Yes, quite. The complications that arise from glibly rolling-off this 'fact' are summarily dismissed. Yet the theorising about (as Doodledog says) the finer points of Caster Semenya’s medical records are expounded on, in great detail.

Frankly, I don't know how the legislation could / would work - I'm not versed in legal matters, others are paid to do that work.

So - how are these spaces protected if a TIM is legally allowed to use them? The answer is of course, that they are not.

Which leads me to ponder yet again - why can't transwomen be identified as transwomen - not women, transwomen?

There is nothing wrong with aligning your gender to the opposite sex - or even nonbinary, genderfluid, transgender, gender neutral, agender, and pangender, or whatever-gender.

Your inner sense of belonging defines how you feel, but it does not and cannot alter your chromosomes. It's all perfectly understandable, most of us have that 'inner self' that doesn't necessarily correlate with society's expectations of the way we look or behave.

So, again - why cannot transwomen be recognised for what they are - men identifying as women. Why do we have to pretend that a man who has gone through male puberty - and possibly still has his male genitalia (his "girl dick") has, because of his feelings - become a woman.

The last bastion of womanhood is our biological sex. If a man can remove that principle - then men will have complete control of women. The aggressive stance of TWAs demonstrates quite clearly that this is a power struggle.

My 2yo grandson has no difficulty knowing men from women. He went through a phase of not liking or engaging with men, not even his daddy. He’d happily chatter away to the female staff in our local supermarket but the transwoman? Nope, they’ll get the cold shoulder from him. Out of the mouths of babes…

Glorianny As I said if you don't want to listen to black women that is up to you.
What all of them, they all speak with one voice? Except of course the black women who also don't want to race against males. Are they the wrong sort of black women? That's up to you I suppose. You do speak of black people as if they're unable to accept reality. It's very condescending of you, white female supremacy in action.

Rosie51

Glorianny As I said if you don't want to listen to black women that is up to you.
What all of them, they all speak with one voice? Except of course the black women who also don't want to race against males. Are they the wrong sort of black women? That's up to you I suppose. You do speak of black people as if they're unable to accept reality. It's very condescending of you, white female supremacy in action.

No Rosie51 white supremacy divides society into groups, insists some groups of people are more worthy of notice than others and. refuses to listen to those it designates as unimportant or unacceptable. It pits one group of people against another and pretends they are the people responsible for the inequality, rather than the system being at fault. Unfortunately some fall in with those beliefs and just advocate for their own group and refuse to consider the views of others.

Rosie51

Glorianny As I said if you don't want to listen to black women that is up to you.
What all of them, they all speak with one voice? Except of course the black women who also don't want to race against males. Are they the wrong sort of black women? That's up to you I suppose. You do speak of black people as if they're unable to accept reality. It's very condescending of you, white female supremacy in action.

Ha Ha! Rosie51

I have weekly visits from nurses - from various ethnicities. Over the years we have chatted, as you do when nurses are coming into your home and establishing a relationship with their patients.

These women, from different ethnicities, are as varied politically, socially, culturally, as anyone else - and they also have their prejudices, like anyone else. We have had very interesting conversations.

So you are absolutely correct. I don't think any ethnic minority speaks with one voice.

The only thing we all agree on is that racism is an evil and ugly, dangerous trait.

Dickens

Galaxy

Oh and if womens spaces are protected but its impossible to identify sex, then those spaces are meaningless. Say Boris Johnson wants to access a womans changing room, how are we supposed to decide if he can, after all we cant know what sex he is.

Oh and if womens spaces are protected but its impossible to identify sex, then those spaces are meaningless

Yes, quite. The complications that arise from glibly rolling-off this 'fact' are summarily dismissed. Yet the theorising about (as Doodledog says) the finer points of Caster Semenya’s medical records are expounded on, in great detail.

Frankly, I don't know how the legislation could / would work - I'm not versed in legal matters, others are paid to do that work.

So - how are these spaces protected if a TIM is legally allowed to use them? The answer is of course, that they are not.

Which leads me to ponder yet again - why can't transwomen be identified as transwomen - not women, transwomen?

There is nothing wrong with aligning your gender to the opposite sex - or even nonbinary, genderfluid, transgender, gender neutral, agender, and pangender, or whatever-gender.

Your inner sense of belonging defines how you feel, but it does not and cannot alter your chromosomes. It's all perfectly understandable, most of us have that 'inner self' that doesn't necessarily correlate with society's expectations of the way we look or behave.

So, again - why cannot transwomen be recognised for what they are - men identifying as women. Why do we have to pretend that a man who has gone through male puberty - and possibly still has his male genitalia (his "girl dick") has, because of his feelings - become a woman.

The last bastion of womanhood is our biological sex. If a man can remove that principle - then men will have complete control of women. The aggressive stance of TWAs demonstrates quite clearly that this is a power struggle.

I wonder when you last had any real proof of anyone's sex? Can you tell me?
The law is quite clear on identifying single sex spaces and when transwomen even those with a gender recognition certificate can be banned.
What do you want? Women to prove their biological sex at some check point? I for one wouldn't agree to do that nor would many women natal or trans.

SueDonim

My 2yo grandson has no difficulty knowing men from women. He went through a phase of not liking or engaging with men, not even his daddy. He’d happily chatter away to the female staff in our local supermarket but the transwoman? Nope, they’ll get the cold shoulder from him. Out of the mouths of babes…

Children see things as they are and we could learn from them. I well remember "Why is that man wearing a dress?"

What do you want? Women to prove their biological sex at some check point?
Is that the bingo jackpot prize? It’s a full house!

Dickens

Rosie51

Glorianny As I said if you don't want to listen to black women that is up to you.
What all of them, they all speak with one voice? Except of course the black women who also don't want to race against males. Are they the wrong sort of black women? That's up to you I suppose. You do speak of black people as if they're unable to accept reality. It's very condescending of you, white female supremacy in action.

Ha Ha! Rosie51

I have weekly visits from nurses - from various ethnicities. Over the years we have chatted, as you do when nurses are coming into your home and establishing a relationship with their patients.

These women, from different ethnicities, are as varied politically, socially, culturally, as anyone else - and they also have their prejudices, like anyone else. We have had very interesting conversations.

So you are absolutely correct. I don't think any ethnic minority speaks with one voice.

The only thing we all agree on is that racism is an evil and ugly, dangerous trait.

Of course they are.
But if that group of women came in one after another and kept saying there was someone or some aspect of the system they disliked because it discriminated against them would you tell them not to be so silly and you knew better?
There are numerous articles by black women athletes and black women journalists that question the way black women are treated in sport. Which apparently you feel free to ignore. because they don't fit your ideas.Why?

Diversionary tactics Rosie51

Or is it called a straw man argument on social media?

Glorianny

Dickens

Rosie51

Glorianny As I said if you don't want to listen to black women that is up to you.
What all of them, they all speak with one voice? Except of course the black women who also don't want to race against males. Are they the wrong sort of black women? That's up to you I suppose. You do speak of black people as if they're unable to accept reality. It's very condescending of you, white female supremacy in action.

Ha Ha! Rosie51

I have weekly visits from nurses - from various ethnicities. Over the years we have chatted, as you do when nurses are coming into your home and establishing a relationship with their patients.

These women, from different ethnicities, are as varied politically, socially, culturally, as anyone else - and they also have their prejudices, like anyone else. We have had very interesting conversations.

So you are absolutely correct. I don't think any ethnic minority speaks with one voice.

The only thing we all agree on is that racism is an evil and ugly, dangerous trait.

Of course they are.
But if that group of women came in one after another and kept saying there was someone or some aspect of the system they disliked because it discriminated against them would you tell them not to be so silly and you knew better?
There are numerous articles by black women athletes and black women journalists that question the way black women are treated in sport. Which apparently you feel free to ignore. because they don't fit your ideas.Why?

Talk about making a row unnecessarily

Glorianny this thread is about men pretending to be women.

If you have a bee in your bonnet regarding black women in sport why not start a thread instead of using the topic as a diversionary tactic as you are unable to get anyone to agree with you.

People taking banned drugs as perfectly legitimate medication for a recognised physical ailment are not allowed to compete in competitive sports either, whether they are classed as male or female, so why should trans athletes get a special dispensation?

An athlete born as a woman who deliberately takes testosterone to enhance her training and performance deserves to be banned from competing, and no-one gets into a sweat protesting about it. A man competing against men who does the same thing also deserves to be banned.

Yet currently there are endless examples of a man who has trained for years under his own natural testosterone in a sport where a male physique is a distinct advantage (basketball, for instance) without making much progress in moving up the charts who then decides that he wishes to identify as a woman and compete in that category. He then immediately starts winning medals over competitors who have trained equally hard for equally as long with no chemical enhancement at all and are beginning to see success. His ranking zooms up from mediocre to championship level in record time - and on at least one occasion, he got to stand on a podium for a medal while the totally female competitor who had exactly the same number of points has to stand by and watch !!!!

Throwing in the case of an athlete who has an unsuspected genetic anomaly that means she didn't choose to be using that chemical enhancement doesn't cut it with reference to the ones who did choose. Whatever the source, she is in the same leaky boat as someone whose coach was feeding her testosterone pills and telling her that they were vitamins - she has an unfair advantage over her fellow competitors due to the presence of a banned substance. That is heartbreaking for anyone who has just discovered it, but the regulation is still being broken.

Perhaps a simple cheek smear for ALL athletes above a certain age, male or female, entering high level competitions before being accepted into the appropriate category, would be a fair way of allocating them to the right group. There could be extra groups open to all who preferred not to accept the cheek test, or who were DSD.

Boxers seem to survive having to fight only their peers.

Government is in thrall to pressure groups.

Baggs

Government is in thrall to pressure groups.

Nail firmly hit on the head 👏👏👏

Doodledog

Glorianny (I won't do nested quotes). It would have been more helpful to have an answer in your own words, but never mind. The legal position says (in summary) that in order to exclude a transwoman from a women's space there has to be a legitimate aim, which must be objectively justified. Both of those terms seem to rely on the Clapham omnibus test, which is not much help on a Friday night in a city pub, which is where my friend was assaulted by a man in the Ladies, in the days when men were not allowed in. As I have said before, it was only because the fact that a man was spotted going in there that the alarm was raised and he didn't manage to rape her.

Also, women's spaces are not protected by that, unless you believe that men can become women just by saying so. How is it ok to exclude men who say they are men from women's spaces but not men who say they are women? Is it all about the magic words?

So basically, there are no protections for women. Transwomen, yes - women, no.

Why can't I identify as a First Class traveller and have access to the FC airport lounges and turn left on the plane? Is it just about the ticket, or is it that having a FC ticket means that the traveller has paid for the privileges, and it would be both unreasonable and unfair to let anyone, regardless of what they'd paid, identify their way in because they fancy it?

Oh dear we're back to the loo in the pub discussion. So how will banning transwomen and making them use the gents and therefore of necessity having transmen use the ladies keep us all safer? I'm fascinated to understand how having people who look like men using our loos will protect anyone. Transwomen of course can happily be thrown to the lions.
I do question when feminism stopped being about changing the system and became about just tinkering with the bits some women don't like.

Perhaps a simple cheek smear for ALL athletes above a certain age, male or female, entering high level competitions before being accepted into the appropriate category, would be a fair way of allocating them to the right group.

I agree Elegran, but I wouldn't restrict it to only high level competition. Without the lower levels also being fair you will have females dropping out because they can't compete successfully against males. Maybe at age 12 if entering competitions? It's a one off test that can then record that athlete as their correct sex for any and every future event.

And back to the original question, no JKR isn't pushing boundaries too far. She recognises that transwomen being male are the patriarchy who want to rule over women just as much as the other males. "Feminists" who place male wants over women's needs just support the patriarchy despite their denials. What was the message for so long......Transwomen are women NO DEBATE

In other words to actual women who objected sit down and shut up

therefore of necessity having transmen use the ladies? What necessity? There is absolutely no need to demand transmen use female toilets. If men object to transmen using their facilities (I thought nobody could tell?) then they can campaign to have them banned.

It would certainly make transmen safer. Which is why they generally are placed in female prisons for example.

SueDonim

My 2yo grandson has no difficulty knowing men from women. He went through a phase of not liking or engaging with men, not even his daddy. He’d happily chatter away to the female staff in our local supermarket but the transwoman? Nope, they’ll get the cold shoulder from him. Out of the mouths of babes…

Quite.

No one can identify transwomen anyway. Some people may claim they can but really can't. It doesn't matter anyway. Glorianny.

With respect, I think you may need glasses, or better ones.

I am not sure if anyone has asked you the direct question of, "do you really and truly believe that a transwoman is a real woman"?

Some of you gnetters are talking a load of twaddle

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny this thread is about men pretending to be women.

If you have a bee in your bonnet regarding black women in sport why not start a thread instead of using the topic as a diversionary tactic as you are unable to get anyone to agree with you.

GG13 I didn't introduce sport if you check back. But isn't it strange how when an unanswerable question is raised someone always chips in to accuse me of derailing or using diversionary tactics. I'm just trying to politely enter into a discussion. Most of which is totally illogical and based on inaccuracies. But I do try to introduce some aspect of reasonability.
I see the question of transmen in the ladies has completely been ignored once again