Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

But we can look at it another way Doodledog Wheniwasyourage.
If we consider that people who are captured by a cult cannot help themselves, and are most unlikely accept challenges to their belief system. Then questioning all that they say in open discussion is very beneficial to those on the margins.
Those who are vulnerable or know someone who is vulnerable can and will see the arguments for and against put in clear language.
They will observe the different ways each chose to 'defend' their position.

Which is why what you and others who dont give up do on threads here is valuable.

For my self I stick to the basics.
Facts are facts.
No shutting down free speach
No Trans ideology in schools
No barbaric surgery on children
No men in womens spaces

My perspective is my perspective, one formulated over years reading these threads where I have time and time again tried engaging respectfully and been attacked on a personal level. where my view that we can get everyone's rights heard and respected with a common sense approach has been shut down.

If you don't like my perspective, change it... That's in your power not mine, I just say what I see

Personally, I do not reply sometimes, or get worked up, about certain posters.
They have their views and I have mine.

I will reply sometimes, if there are not many of us on a thread. Or they may have said something unbiblical, something like that.

VioletSky

My perspective is my perspective, one formulated over years reading these threads where I have time and time again tried engaging respectfully and been attacked on a personal level. where my view that we can get everyone's rights heard and respected with a common sense approach has been shut down.

If you don't like my perspective, change it... That's in your power not mine, I just say what I see

I also say what I see. VS. If you condone a lie, then suggesting we change your perspective would be a waste of time.

I hear you say that everyone’s rights should be heard and respected, as long as the right to inflict an untruth on others is given the most precedence.

No one so far has managed to explain why a lie is suddenly to be respected , especially when the outcomes of that lie always seem to be detrimental to females.
If you or anyone can explain how the untruth that humans can change sex, which the claimants use to lie, cheat, and threaten females should be respected then go ahead.

Namsnanny

But we can look at it another way Doodledog Wheniwasyourage.
If we consider that people who are captured by a cult cannot help themselves, and are most unlikely accept challenges to their belief system. Then questioning all that they say in open discussion is very beneficial to those on the margins.
Those who are vulnerable or know someone who is vulnerable can and will see the arguments for and against put in clear language.
They will observe the different ways each chose to 'defend' their position.

Which is why what you and others who dont give up do on threads here is valuable.

For my self I stick to the basics.
Facts are facts.
No shutting down free speach
No Trans ideology in schools
No barbaric surgery on children
No men in womens spaces

I agree, Namsnanny, and part of the reason I keep repeating myself on these threads is that I am aware that there are people reading who don't post. I think this is one of those topics where people often start off thinking that trans rights are an extension of gay rights and a general 'live and let live' outlook. I know I felt like that when I first met a transwoman many years ago, and where individual transpeople are concerned I still do.

It takes an incident or particular realisation (often called 'being peaked') to make people stop and think 'Hang on a minute - this is not really about individual people just wanting to live their lives. It's about forcing people to accept and endorse views they may not hold, and removing rights from women that took years to acquire'. For me, this realisation happened in a number of ways, which I will relate in no particular order.

Firstly when I posted on here asking about young people being given hormones, binders and so on when they said they felt they were 'in the wrong body', and why we couldn't broaden the parameters of gender stereotypes so that there were no 'boys' and 'girls' ways of being? It was a straight question with no agenda, on a seemingly reasonable thread. I was a new poster, and taken aback when I was rounded on and told in no uncertain terms that this was prejudiced, that I needed to 'educate myself' and that I was speaking to seasoned feminists who knew what they were talking about. I did 'educate myself' and discovered that there was no answer to my original question, which is why no attempt was made to address it on the thread.

Secondly, a lesbian friend of mine went on a dating site and met up with a transwoman posing as a lesbian. My friend was not interested in going further, as she is not interested in sex with male bodies, which, obviously, is not unusual for lesbians. She was shaken when the transwoman turned nasty, she was called a TERF, and the transwoman became threatening.

Thirdly, a conversation about males in women's toilets reminded me of years ago, when I was a student, and a friend of mine was sexually assaulted in the ladies' loo. A man had gone in there, obviously intending to find a victim. Fortunately one of the bar staff had seen him disappear into the corridor where the Ladies' was, and when he didn't come back the alarm was raised, just in time to save my friend from being raped. I realised that if that happened now, it would be far less likely that someone would react, as men just have to say they are women to be allowed in there legitimately. If they dress as a woman it is highly unlikely that they would be questioned (particularly in a student bar) and even if they didn't it would be a brave barman who would risk his job by 'misgendering'.

Finally, a colleague of mine was asked to declare pronouns on emails and Zoom/Teams screens, which were used a lot during lockdown. I don't want to go into a lot of detail, as it is not my story to tell, but this person was known by one identity at home (not in the UK) and another at work, and did not want the discrepancy to be discovered by family, which could very easily have happened.

I am not a TERF. I am not phobic. I have never intentionally discriminated against anyone. I am neither racist nor homophobic, although I have been accused of both on here. I am not a Nazi, although I have been accused of that, too, and have seen others similarly accused for not bowing to the trans allies' diktats. I do not want to make anyone's life more difficult than it already is. Those insults are unwarranted, and IMO show the paucity of logic or reason in the arguments in favour of self-ID. I think we all get 'peaked' at different times and in different ways, but if someone reads threads on here and something resonates it is worth the frustration of going round in circles so much.

I'm a bit like you too fancythat sometimes others have said similar things to my own thoughts, so I don't post.
But I do wonder if on contencious subjects such as this one, it's best to counter point for point?

Doodledog - thanks for that summary and for staying here

It's not a lie to me to give someone their pronouns, it's a simple social etiquette. As for sex and gender, it is not a lie to me to call a trans woman a woman, albeit a trans woman... it is a truth we don't fully understand yet but we will in time

I always acknowledge the trans distinction and believe it a measure that keeps everyone's rights protected, sports fair, enables the correct medical help and many other reasons but socially I don't need it

I'm not here for trans activists and I am not here for gender critical feminism, I am here for ordinary everyday people who just want to live their ordinary everyday lives

You say VS that your view is that everyone's rights should be heard and respected, so what rights are the trans community currently being denied, that everyone else has but them?

And yes I do believe people should be honest about their trans status dating, always. The fact that some aren't to me shows a clear lack of support in handling their own gender dysphoria... But services for trans people are being relentlessly taken down and not replaced with something fiy for purpose

We are letting all sorts of people down by not formulating a good approach across the board

Smileless2012

You say VS that your view is that everyone's rights should be heard and respected, so what rights are the trans community currently being denied, that everyone else has but them?

And what about the rights of women to decide who should see them in a state of undress, who should be able to follow them into the Ladies, who should examine them intimately if they have been raped or if their religion forbids intimate touch from male bodied people?

VioletSky

My perspective is my perspective, one formulated over years reading these threads where I have time and time again tried engaging respectfully and been attacked on a personal level. where my view that we can get everyone's rights heard and respected with a common sense approach has been shut down.

If you don't like my perspective, change it... That's in your power not mine, I just say what I see

If you don't like my perspective, change it... That's in your power not mine, I just say what I see

... what do you see VS?

My perspective is my perspective, one formulated over years reading these threads where I have time and time again tried engaging respectfully and been attacked on a personal level...

But you don't engage at all VS - you just throw out these generalised accusations (of vilification and lack of "responsibility", etc)... usually aimed at some people or just people.

Because you are not addressing any one in particular - or any particular point and posters respond... these some people that you refer to. And then you get dismayed because you think you are being attacked when in fact what is happening is that you are being challenged on the assumptions you've made.

You must know, from having read the posts, that the majority posting at length on here are not vilifying the trans community, yet you persist with the accusation - and then wonder why you get a reaction which you then deem disrespectful.

Smileless2012

You say VS that your view is that everyone's rights should be heard and respected, so what rights are the trans community currently being denied, that everyone else has but them?

Ensuring people's rights are respected is more a comment on the ideal of those who want to remove them.. ie, no GRC, No rights in the workplace to have their pronouns respected, no protection from being bullied and harassed, no access to gender affirming treatment

And I am not assigning that to anyone here, simply explaining my meaning

Dickens some is an amount of people, which I have explained many times, and I am just trying to get my opinions across without engaging in a personal or disrespectful way

Someone once explained to me that if a person does not like you or your opinion, they read it in the tone of voice they have assigned to you.. that can be all sorts of things, whiny, aggressive, sarcastic etc

My autism gives me no ability to do that... So I do objectively put the content together

You haven't answered my question VS.

They do have the right to have their pronouns respected in the workplace and for GRC, they have the same right as anyone else to be protected from being bullied and harassed and they are not having their right to gender affirming treatment denied.

So I'll ask again, what rights are they being denied because they are trans that non trans have?

But it easily explains how people take comments the wrong way and don't realise they are doing it, very interesting really

Smileless2012

You haven't answered my question VS.

They do have the right to have their pronouns respected in the workplace and for GRC, they have the same right as anyone else to be protected from being bullied and harassed and they are not having their right to gender affirming treatment denied.

So I'll ask again, what rights are they being denied because they are trans that non trans have?

I have addressed your question very clearly, I haven't asserted anything that should lead to your question so I have no need to answer it

What no ability to be aggressive, sarcastic etc or no ability to see that in others VS?

Again, there are those who want to remove trans rights, saying those rights must be protected is not the same as saying they are being denied

You can't answer it VS. It's been asked countless times by numerous posters to you and Glorianny over various threads and has never been answered, because there aren't any rights that everyone apart from the trans community has.

Smileless2012

What no ability to be aggressive, sarcastic etc or no ability to see that in others VS?

Again, I cannot read in those tones of voice in my head, I just read deadpan

Smileless2012

You can't answer it VS. It's been asked countless times by numerous posters to you and Glorianny over various threads and has never been answered, because there aren't any rights that everyone apart from the trans community has.

Why would I need to answer it? Your conversations with others have nothing to do with me

Does it explain how you might take comments the wrong way VS, I see that once again you are making accusations of being attacked on a personal level.

Yes it has happened

And so my trust of people on these threads is very low sadly and I leave them often