Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

Ah, found this from 2 days ago:

"More generally, should social transitions be undertaken, the review recommended only a partial, rather than complete, social transition, especially for younger children, noting how many children currently live in fear of being “found out.”

Which really doesn't clarify anything, does it?.

Define respect.
Do you see respect as a two way process, or is it only trans who should have their rights respected?
e.g.
Do you agree that children (or anyone) should have the right to compel others to use words or terminology they know are lies, for fear of punishment?
The above greatly concerns me. Where is the protection for staff dealing with these children? Are they allowed choice in dealing with thee demands or are they to be sacked for gross incompetence?

Its particularly for younger children (primary age) that they dont recommend social transition, I think the cass report is recommending a health professional to explain risks if the parents insist, I am guessing this will be to avoid litigation which I imagine is on the way.
I think it's important as well (although this isnt nhs remit at all) to challenge the stereotypes, a girl with short hair is just that a girl with short hair. Your hair length is irrelevant to your sex.

Yes I think that's a really good point eazybee, there appears to have been an appalling lack of research/follow up for children with gender dysphoria, but I am not aware of any research on what happens to children who were forced to pretend something they knew wasnt true.

Glorianny

I wonder how many teens and pre-teens will simply hide their social transitioning from their parents and other adults?Just like shortening your skirt or putting your make up on out of sight of disapproving adults has always happened, will they now be one gender at home and add the changes they need to present as another when they go out? I'm not sure that is helpful to any family relationships.

I think that is very possible. Children try on different ways of being all the time. I mentioned subcultural groups recently (not sure whether on this thread or another) and you had a dig, but this is not dissimilar, is it?

Some children grow out of their assumed identities, others don't. But telling a child that because they liked something at 7, or at 13 they must continue to do so for life is surely irresponsible in the extreme?

I have often heard women say that as children they wanted to be a boy because they liked climbing trees and playing football. To me, those things are nothing to do with sex, gender or anything other than being a child. They may have been told by adults back then that these were boyish activities, but that was because of the gender stereotypes of the day. It was obviously very commonplace for girls to enjoy tree climbing and football, as so many bring them up as examples.

I don't know what it is that makes today's children feel that they are 'in the wrong body', but I'm sure it will be something that in 40 years' time will seem equally dated and stereotyped. Condemning young children to a lifetime of hormones and more on the basis of what will, for many, be a passing fad - however deeply felt - is cruel, and I am delighted that this has been recognised by the Cass report.

As for familial relationships, in many ways it is healthy for them to be difficult for a time. As children become young adults it is necessary for them to separate from their parents and be themselves. They need to reject at least some of their parents' values in order to be sure that the ones they hang on to are shared, and that others are their own. I don't see that as unhelpful.

Yes, for Primary Schools social transition is out, but even then its not simple:

"“Schools and colleges are expected to follow all guidance issued by the Government, whether it is statutory or not. “Our guidance is clear that in nearly every case schools should not support the social transition of primary aged children, including not using pronouns that do not align with the child's sex.”"

It's that "nearly every case" as it throws back the responsibility onto schools who frankly must be reeling in confusion about what to do"

ie

"nearly every case" (define?)

"only partial transition" (meaning what?"

If teachers are to follow the spirit of Cass, which is people being treated holistically, as individuals, according to need and circumstances, then there has to be this measure of flexibility for whatever is in the young persons best interests.

But there is zero evidence as to what is in the best interest because of the lack of research into the interventions they were so enthusiastically following. In any other field there would have been some professional curiosity in the surge in numbers of girls for a start.

Sorry thats unfair, David Bell and the safeguarding lead at the tavistock Sonia Appleby did raise concerns, and were treated poorly to say the least.

Well I'm not sure about the lack of research. Here's a link to a review of research into transgender people's well being after transition. Most of the studies show an increase in well being.
Is there a lack of research or has the research simply been ignored.
Two of the results are important as far as this report goes. And sadly neither of them will be implemented for trans individuals in the UK
Factors that are predictive of success in the treatment of gender dysphoria include adequate preparation and mental health support prior to treatment, proper follow-up care from knowledgeable providers, consistent family and social support, and high-quality surgical outcomes (when surgery is involved).

6. Transgender individuals, particularly those who cannot access treatment for gender dysphoria or who encounter unsupportive social environments, are more likely than the general population to experience health challenges such as depression, anxiety, suicidality and minority stress. While gender transition can mitigate these challenges, the health and well-being of transgender people can be harmed by stigmatizing and discriminatory treatment

The waiting lists mean there will be completely inadequate care for transpeople.
whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

Galaxy

For children that is.

so does that mean anyone under 18? or do they mean people under 16?

thanks for explaining all btw

Age 18 for drugs although it does say

"In a nutshell, it recommends the service significantly limit the prescribing of medications — colloquially known as puberty blockers — for people aged under 18 and for patient care to be multi-disciplinary and centred around mental health support rather than medical interventions"

So there is an apparent loophole (significantly limit, not forbid) but I imagine if the Cass report were to be implemented ie enough counselling and help and evaluation were there there might be exceptions - I don't know.

I think they are intervening with the private providers as well with regard to under 18s in this country
There are criminal proceedings in Italy against a clinic with regard to puberty blockers. I dont know enough about Italy's health system to know the nature of the clinic .

Kathleen Stocks has written a thoughtful but provocative article on Unherd comparing the doctrinaire attitudes that prevailed at the Tavistock Clinic nd similar places to a religious cult unherd.com/2024/04/the-liberal-lessons-of-the-cass-report/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

What do you think, Monica?

I find it unnecessarily provocative, I'm not sure what the value of this is, what she hopes to achieve with it, because Cass has a moderate, team based holistic approach and what Stock's main complaint is, of medical drug intervention, has been almost completely taken off the table, and staff cannot work in that way again in the NHS.

And Cass's report is being actioned and staff have to work within the boundaries we have discussed at length in this discussion so far.

I would have liked her rather to use her caring for the patients to push hard and get the resources that Cass needs for the holistic team based clinics - that do not yet have.

I think that it is perfectly understandable for the heads of people like KS to be spinning. On the one hand, they must be delighted to be vindicated, and know that all the sacrifices they have made in pursuit of the truth have borne fruit. On the other they must be absolutely furious to know that they had to make those sacrifices, and suffer vilification and threats.

Surely expecting them to go straight to calm professional mode (particularly when their careers have been derailed so spectacularly) is asking too much too soon?

Wyllow3 I think it somewhat OTT, but what she describes of circles of people who all agree with each other and only talk to each other and turn on, and professionally undermine anyone who disagrees with them, is very much more common than people like to admit and the medical, and ancillary professions seem more prone to it than most.

This week I read an article by a man, whose father had had him undergo several years of Kleinian psycho analysis form the aage of around 8-10. There seemed to be no specific reason for this, but his father moved in psycho analytical social circles, and obviously thought it would be good for his son.

As a child, this man had not enjoyed the experience had been bored, and uncooperataive in the sessions and finally rebelled and refused to attend them. As an adult he discovered that his analyst had written up and published an anonymised version of his case. It had been the source of many more learned articles from other people and it was much discussed in the relevant circles.

When he read these reports he was outraged by the interpretations about his psyche and how his mind worked etc etc, which he said were a travesty of the truth. He was just an ordinary child made to undergo a process he did not understand and was bored and recalitrant in sessions and disliked the therapist. Perfectly ordinary decisions he made to sit on one chair rather another, simply because it was more comfortble, were psychoanalysed and considered replete with deep meaning, not just by the therapsit but others as well.

The problem was, this man reported that the particular form of psychoanalysis he was subject too was under attack - as much gender changing treatment was, so those following this therapy had drawn the wagons up in a circle and refused to talk to anyone who didn't agree with them and replled all criticism. This is essentially what has happened with gender therapy and is happening in one or two other areas of medecine.

M0nica

Kathleen Stocks has written a thoughtful but provocative article on Unherd comparing the doctrinaire attitudes that prevailed at the Tavistock Clinic nd similar places to a religious cult unherd.com/2024/04/the-liberal-lessons-of-the-cass-report/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

Ah Kathleen Stock trying in vain to become relevant again and possibly publicise the University of Austin of which she is a founder member. Described by some as "anti-woke" it intends to offer "forbidden courses" although as yet it has no graduates or under graduates. Has she got another book out? That's usually when we hear from her.

The first priority is to protect children. They must not become footballs in an ideological conflict. Individuals and organisations must be free to speak out about their concerns.

I hear from her all the time Glorianny, she has a weekly podcast, I cant imagine what she and others must be feeling after the way they have been treated.
I see Ruth Hunt is trying to throw everyone under the bus and pretend it was nothing to do with
her, I wondered how they would react when it all started to collapse.

Luckygirl3

The first priority is to protect children. They must not become footballs in an ideological conflict. Individuals and organisations must be free to speak out about their concerns.

Agreed. That's been the value for me of concentrating in this discussion on the Cass report and implementing it with enough resources because in the gender area as a whole there is so much controversy I become concerned individuals needing care and support get lost.

It could have begun years earlier if they had listened to the whistleblowers in particular the safeguarding lead.

Galaxy

I hear from her all the time Glorianny, she has a weekly podcast, I cant imagine what she and others must be feeling after the way they have been treated.
I see Ruth Hunt is trying to throw everyone under the bus and pretend it was nothing to do with
her, I wondered how they would react when it all started to collapse.

How has she been treated? Took a job at a trans friendly university then found they were doing gender studies (what a surprise!) so changed her area of expertise, simply to argue with them, and was then surprised that the students rebelled and didn't like her. She 's got an OBE, very lucrative book deals, a position at a university she doesn't even need to live near and somehow she's been mistreated?

Wyllow3

Luckygirl3

The first priority is to protect children. They must not become footballs in an ideological conflict. Individuals and organisations must be free to speak out about their concerns.

Agreed. That's been the value for me of concentrating in this discussion on the Cass report and implementing it with enough resources because in the gender area as a whole there is so much controversy I become concerned individuals needing care and support get lost.

Oh I think the individuals and children needing care and support are well and truly lost. Can you imagine anyone would be celebrating a report which criticised the treatment of any other condition in children, but which left those children with waiting lists of over 6 years to simply be diagnosed, not even treated?

I know imagine there being a variety of views at a university, how traumatizing. You have just described her as trying to be relevant then listed some quite impressive achievements.
All those who were trying to raise the alarm were called nazis, far right, received numerous threats etc.

The 6 years waiting list I described is the local over 18's gender services. Lowest waiting lists for over 18's services is 2 years in NI.

I don't know what the waiting list for the new GID's services in London and Manchester will be.

Waiting lists for children's Mental Health services are dire, if the young person with gender issues is in need of those services too.