Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

It might have helped to look at the explosion of numbers in girls when it was flagged and what that meant, if many of those girls should have been referred to autism services (2 year waiting list in my area and we arent the worst be a long shot) or to support services around childhood trauma, then there would have been a clearer picture.

Glorianny
Can you imagine anyone would be celebrating a report which criticised the treatment of any other condition in children, but which left those children with waiting lists of over 6 years to simply be diagnosed, not even treated?

Can you imagine any other possible condition in children that would have been treated by amputation, sterilisation or irrevocable changes by drugs without first considering other means, and without waiting till the children were old enough to understand these outcomes for their future lives?

The leap in and lop it off or dive in and drug them all brigade has a lot to answer for.

I agree that there isn't enough support for any mental health problems not just trans.

But for those on other mental health waiting lists, the answer isn’t to chop bits off a child’s body, or sterilise them, or offer irrevocable drug treatment while they wait, to see if that would work, especially when they’re too young to understand what these treatments really mean for their future.

I suspect as a society we need to look at children and mental health, again we are looking at a rise in numbers that seems of concern, is this linked to social media, the content that children are being exposed to, or something else entirely, whilst it is vital to look at the support available it is also important to try and unpick what is going on.

I am talking about general mental health concerns in children there rather than specifically gender related.

Galaxy

I know imagine there being a variety of views at a university, how traumatizing. You have just described her as trying to be relevant then listed some quite impressive achievements.
All those who were trying to raise the alarm were called nazis, far right, received numerous threats etc.

If students don't like someone now they are paying for their courses they can say so loudly. The concept of not listening to them is irreconcilable with the actuality. They can withdraw and take the money with them.
She chose a trans-friendly university then spouted anti-trans theory. She knew what she was doing.
She has benefitted from their opposition, but to stay relevant she needs to challenge more- hence her views on this report

Wyllow3

The 6 years waiting list I described is the local over 18's gender services. Lowest waiting lists for over 18's services is 2 years in NI.

I don't know what the waiting list for the new GID's services in London and Manchester will be.

Waiting lists for children's Mental Health services are dire, if the young person with gender issues is in need of those services too.

Sorry the 6 years is for adult services.
The children's gender service is not making appointments yet. They advise the parents of children showing distress to contact their local CAMHs service. So this will have a knock on effect for all children using that service.
www.ardengemcsu.nhs.uk/services/clinical-support/national-referral-support-service-for-the-nhs-gender-incongruence-service-for-children-and-young-people/

Galaxy

I suspect as a society we need to look at children and mental health, again we are looking at a rise in numbers that seems of concern, is this linked to social media, the content that children are being exposed to, or something else entirely, whilst it is vital to look at the support available it is also important to try and unpick what is going on.

Thats a good question as to the "why". I can only quote what my niece, who until a year ago was headteacher of a large comprehensive when I asked her.
She said often young people knew more about gender identity issues than the teachers, and pointed to social media, and they tried to do their best by individual children, but guidance and referral was sorely lacking.

Yes. Its dire. I'm sure locally most referrals if gender issues are part of the issue have gone down that route already. New money is needed - it cant be diverted from Adult services, dementia services, older adult services, they are also on their knees.

And of course in schools and university counselling services who are struggling to support children.

Glorianny

Galaxy

I know imagine there being a variety of views at a university, how traumatizing. You have just described her as trying to be relevant then listed some quite impressive achievements.
All those who were trying to raise the alarm were called nazis, far right, received numerous threats etc.

If students don't like someone now they are paying for their courses they can say so loudly. The concept of not listening to them is irreconcilable with the actuality. They can withdraw and take the money with them.
She chose a trans-friendly university then spouted anti-trans theory. She knew what she was doing.
She has benefitted from their opposition, but to stay relevant she needs to challenge more- hence her views on this report

What is the difference between someone lecturing on their area of expertise, and someone 'spouting'? Do men 'spout', or is that yet another sexist jibe?

As for a 'trans-friendly university' - can you name one that is not? What does the concept of academic freedom mean to you, if anything? And what is the point of a student being able to dictate the terms and content of courses? They are there to learn, not to tell staff what to think. They can challenge, by all means, but not dictate.

Universities already have to deal with 'helicopter parents', students who are scared of not getting Firsts, NSS scores driving viability of courses, students wanting to opt out of assessments they find difficult, balancing that with the needs of the professional bodies the same students want to accredit their courses, and now you are saying that they should be able to shout down the staff teaching them and have them removed if 'they don't like someone'? Basically just buy a degree, as 'they are paying for their courses'?

And then people moan that degrees aren't worth what they used to be🙄🙄

I dont know what is going on with autism either, we are all saying improved awareness, better diagnosis etc, I really hope we arent missing something. I know anecdote is not helpful but the children I am seeing at work arent ones who could have slipped by unnoticed.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Galaxy

I know imagine there being a variety of views at a university, how traumatizing. You have just described her as trying to be relevant then listed some quite impressive achievements.
All those who were trying to raise the alarm were called nazis, far right, received numerous threats etc.

If students don't like someone now they are paying for their courses they can say so loudly. The concept of not listening to them is irreconcilable with the actuality. They can withdraw and take the money with them.
She chose a trans-friendly university then spouted anti-trans theory. She knew what she was doing.
She has benefitted from their opposition, but to stay relevant she needs to challenge more- hence her views on this report

What is the difference between someone lecturing on their area of expertise, and someone 'spouting'? Do men 'spout', or is that yet another sexist jibe?

As for a 'trans-friendly university' - can you name one that is not? What does the concept of academic freedom mean to you, if anything? And what is the point of a student being able to dictate the terms and content of courses? They are there to learn, not to tell staff what to think. They can challenge, by all means, but not dictate.

Universities already have to deal with 'helicopter parents', students who are scared of not getting Firsts, NSS scores driving viability of courses, students wanting to opt out of assessments they find difficult, balancing that with the needs of the professional bodies the same students want to accredit their courses, and now you are saying that they should be able to shout down the staff teaching them and have them removed if 'they don't like someone'? Basically just buy a degree, as 'they are paying for their courses'?

And then people moan that degrees aren't worth what they used to be🙄🙄

Of course men "spout".

The reality of working in a student driven environment is disturbing for many academics. They simply have to put up with things. It has its advantages and disadvantages. Sussex students said they were an anonymous, unaffiliated group of queer, trans and non-binary students who will not allow our community to be slandered and harmed by someone who's [sic] salary comes from our pockets

The University of Sussex was amongst the first to offer a Gender Studies course. Stock wasn't part of that department. Not surprisingly there was a lot of upset when she chose to produce her book.

Universities are what they are.

The university of sussex has always been a maverick university attracting all kinds of weird people and ideologies.
Lunatics running the asylum comes to mind if students are able to pick and choose lecturers on the basis of thinking along the same lines.

Doodledog 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Following up from the Cass report there should have been a realistic resources review. If a young person is treated within CAMHS becausee of lack of resources in the gender field and there is a proper decision made by all for referral at 18 for gender reassignment discussions imagine being told - oh, but by the way, there is now a waiting list of 2 to 6 years - I can understand why - sometimes - anger and feeling there are anti-trans forces at work could be an outcome which can turn political.

The reality of working in a student driven environment is disturbing for many academics. They simply have to put up with things. It has its advantages and disadvantages.
Thank you for those words of wisdom 😂

In your haste to teach me to suck eggs you have forgotten to say what you think about academic freedom, though. Or whether you can name a trans-unfriendly university.

Oreo

The university of sussex has always been a maverick university attracting all kinds of weird people and ideologies.
Lunatics running the asylum comes to mind if students are able to pick and choose lecturers on the basis of thinking along the same lines.

Thank you, Oreo. I can't for the life of me see the point of someone spending £9k a year (and these days so many people see education in terms of a cost/benefit analysis) if they are only willing to listen to their own views parroted back to them. they may as well stay at home.

I think things started to go wrong with all the ‘safe space’ crap and the idea that students have to be protected. As if they were 5 years old.Then came the idea that students shouldn’t hear anything that may upset them or differ from their own way of thinking on any given subject. Idiocy that never should have been given in to.

Wyllow3

Following up from the Cass report there should have been a realistic resources review. If a young person is treated within CAMHS becausee of lack of resources in the gender field and there is a proper decision made by all for referral at 18 for gender reassignment discussions imagine being told - oh, but by the way, there is now a waiting list of 2 to 6 years - I can understand why - sometimes - anger and feeling there are anti-trans forces at work could be an outcome which can turn political.

There should already be a realistic resources review for all the increasing number of mental health problems among children, and incidentally among adults, particularly females.
I wouldn’t suggest trans issues should be any further down any list of those desperate for support, but are you saying they deserve preferential treatment?
Being told there is a waiting list isn’t just to do with trans. E.g. being told that females are less deserving of places in a newly built mental health facility than men and therefore females will be housed in facilities at a greater distance from their homes.

Oreo

I think things started to go wrong with all the ‘safe space’ crap and the idea that students have to be protected. As if they were 5 years old.Then came the idea that students shouldn’t hear anything that may upset them or differ from their own way of thinking on any given subject. Idiocy that never should have been given in to.

So would you allow someone who was a holocaust denier to speak? Or are there sections of the population you consider worthy of protection?

There is one proviso I would make if a Holocaust denier were to want to speak, and that is that there must be a lengthy question-and-answer session after the talk, which the speaker would attend every minute of. I would then make sure that the talk, and the opportunity to join in the subsequent discussion, were widely publicised, including to the people likely to have strong views on the subject.

It would probably be advisable to warn the police in advance, and to have some burly "ushers" in attendance.

Are you saying that biological realists who say that women are adult human females are equivalent to Holocaust deniers?

I know you are given to hyperbole, but surely that's a stretch.

Doodledog

*The reality of working in a student driven environment is disturbing for many academics. They simply have to put up with things. It has its advantages and disadvantages.*
Thank you for those words of wisdom 😂

In your haste to teach me to suck eggs you have forgotten to say what you think about academic freedom, though. Or whether you can name a trans-unfriendly university.

I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.

I don't know all about all UK universities, but here are two transpeople who think academia doesn't support transpeople. Perhaps their experiences count? www.thepinknews.com/2021/11/03/kathleen-stock-trans-university-transphobia/

Elegran

There is one proviso I would make if a Holocaust denier were to want to speak, and that is that there must be a lengthy question-and-answer session after the talk, which the speaker would attend every minute of. I would then make sure that the talk, and the opportunity to join in the subsequent discussion, were widely publicised, including to the people likely to have strong views on the subject.

It would probably be advisable to warn the police in advance, and to have some burly "ushers" in attendance.

Agreed, Elegran. All points of view should be debated. Shining a light on such matters shows how indefensible they are. No Debate is not how students learn - only allowing certain perspectives is indoctrination.

Elegran

There is one proviso I would make if a Holocaust denier were to want to speak, and that is that there must be a lengthy question-and-answer session after the talk, which the speaker would attend every minute of. I would then make sure that the talk, and the opportunity to join in the subsequent discussion, were widely publicised, including to the people likely to have strong views on the subject.

It would probably be advisable to warn the police in advance, and to have some burly "ushers" in attendance.

And if a Jewish student came and said her great grandparent's died in Auschwitz and she didn't want anyone to be allowed to diminish their deaths, so she was organising a student protest, would it still go ahead?

I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.

That is twisting my words, as you are aware. Can you show me where I said anything of the sort, please?

I said that course content should be challenged, but I don't see how students can dictate what should be discussed. If they decide things like that, what are they learning?

I also asked whether the concept of academic freedom was something with which you are familiar, but you have avoided answering, in favour of trying to equate biological realism with Holocaust denial.

Glorianny

Doodledog

The reality of working in a student driven environment is disturbing for many academics. They simply have to put up with things. It has its advantages and disadvantages.
Thank you for those words of wisdom 😂

In your haste to teach me to suck eggs you have forgotten to say what you think about academic freedom, though. Or whether you can name a trans-unfriendly university.

I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.

I don't know all about all UK universities, but here are two transpeople who think academia doesn't support transpeople. Perhaps their experiences count? www.thepinknews.com/2021/11/03/kathleen-stock-trans-university-transphobia/

The reality of studying where they are small fish in a big pond may be disturbing to young people who have enjoyed being big fish in their small school puddle, but they simply have to put up eventually with meeting people with a lot more experience of the world than they do.