Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

I think the point is, not making big decisions about gender when so young. I think her report spot on.

Rosie, I believe it is your human right and your privilege to say what sex you want to present yourself as , or no category at all if you so please.

I give up. This is wilful misunderstanding of the difference between sex and gender. The pill is irrelevant!

Urmstongran wrote:

"Maybe, just maybe, we are turning a corner regarding this topic. I hope so."

For what it's worth U, I feel I have understood more since we all began having these conversations. It's only since I read case histories of trans people that I understood the horrific dangers that many trans people , including children, have to live with. Often their lives are in danger.

since the dawn of recorded history there have been people who felt they were another sex .
Until relatively recently in the scale of time there were no artificial hormones or surgeries to give these people and yet they managed to live their lives without having to compel other's speech or behaviour. They lived alongside everybody else peacefully, just quietly going about their business.

Rosie, I believe it is your human right and your privilege to say what sex you want to present yourself as , or no category at all if you so please.
You can present as anything you like, but you cannot change your sex. It matters. If transwomen start dying from prostate cancer because they've not acknowledged their male sex body so haven't enjoyed male screening tests they'll be an outcry. The same for transmen who fail to acknowledge their female sex and miss female screening for cervical cancer etc. Many medical situations present very differently in men and women, heart attacks being the first that came to mind. Nature doesn't care how you "feel" nature observes your sex. If you are registered as the 'wrong' sex problems can arise.

Yes the children receiving treatment from the clinics prior to the cass report were at risk of harm, thankfully the whistleblowers and those brave enough to challenge this have helped to shine a light on that harm.

Caleo

Rosie, I believe it is your human right and your privilege to say what sex you want to present yourself as , or no category at all if you so please.

Gender yes, sex no.
And until you use that choice to cheat, lie, or threaten or harm or remove rights and privileges from females, or demand that others must repeat your lie, you should indeed have the choice.

In the same way, I could identify as rich and want to live a life that reflects that wish. Until and unless I take what doesn’t belong to me in order to maintain my chosen identity I have the right to make my choice.

Caleo

Rosie, I believe it is your human right and your privilege to say what sex you want to present yourself as , or no category at all if you so please.

Gender.

I can't identify as a dog though. Or a cat, although some people do.

A dog has 78 chromosomes (39 pairs).
A cat has 38 chromosomes (19 pairs).

Callistemon: "Gender".

This still puzzles me and I try to understand. I thought gender referred to performing traditionally feminine or masculine roles. I wrote to Rosie "sex" not "gender" because Rosie had written about physiology not simply performance.

At one time I'd have agreed with you .The advances in plastic surgery and hormone intervention make me wonder if trans gender has morphed into trans sex.

Rosie wrote:

"Until relatively recently in the scale of time there were no artificial hormones or surgeries to give these people and yet they managed to live their lives without having to compel other's speech or behaviour. They lived alongside everybody else peacefully, just quietly going about their business."

Trans people are simply people and there probably are some bossy trans people, but there is no reason to presume all trans people want others to change their life styles. We just want others to help us to transition which is at the present time we find sometimes to be embarrassing and even dangerous.

Mollygo wrote:

"----I could identify as rich and want to live a life that reflects that wish. Until and unless I take what doesn’t belong to me in order to maintain my chosen identity I have the right to make my choice."

I agree with you on principle and thanks for the insight.

Would you agree that all children including trans children should have equal rights to self determination and respect in clinics and schools

?

There's no one here that I've seen who doesn't want trans people to be supported, but that support should not include impinging on the rights of women, and for the very young to be encouraged and/or supported in making life changing decisions too soon

What does that even mean. If you mean the right to social transition, that is against NHS guidance.

What does social transition mean?

So using pronouns, etc agreeing they are the other gender, the cass report is saying its not a neutral act.

For children that is.

So what does the Cass report say about social transitioning?
Its an issue faced by parents and schools and anyone working with young people without adequate guidance.

JaneJudge

I looked it up and it can include some or all of
"Changing your name, either socially or by legally notifying the government. Choosing to use different pronouns than you did before. Making “surface” changes to your physical appearance like changing how you dress, style your hair, and binding, packing, tucking, or padding to shift your gender presentation."

I wonder how many teens and pre-teens will simply hide their social transitioning from their parents and other adults?Just like shortening your skirt or putting your make up on out of sight of disapproving adults has always happened, will they now be one gender at home and add the changes they need to present as another when they go out? I'm not sure that is helpful to any family relationships.

I suppose it will happen, just as some hide their sexuality but I don't see how this report would make more do so.

I think its entirely possible that the following would make social transition more likely

To address a question raised previously: Gender clinics,(unless in the private or charitable sector) are all funded by Mental Health money.
This is a historical decision and could have been tainted by the long ago assumption that gay people are mentally ill and need treatment - ie therefore any gender issue...etc etc...

Locally it's not available until 18, and there is a 6 year waiting list.
There are 11 gender clinics available in England fr 17/18 or over. The one local to me is 18 and there is a 6 year waiting list.

Young people:
The 2 new GIDS clinics have waiting lists of 5000 young people situated in London and Manchester.

Obvious conclusion: there are not the resources to give what is undoubtedly a valid and in depth holistic approach to those seeking transition or needing to talk about it as a possibility.

In this vacuum people are far more likely to experiment with social transitioning and seek out support groups/self help groups (which there also are locally, given a 6 year waiting list).

Caleo

Mollygo wrote:

"----I could identify as rich and want to live a life that reflects that wish. Until and unless I take what doesn’t belong to me in order to maintain my chosen identity I have the right to make my choice."

I agree with you on principle and thanks for the insight.

Would you agree that all children including trans children should have equal rights to self determination and respect in clinics and schools

Define equal rights.
Are you asking for something that denies other children’s rights in order to accommodate trans children’s rights?

Define children. What age(s)?

Do you agree that young children should have the right to decide to harm their bodies irrevocably by surgery or drugs when they don’t understand the future they are laying out for themselves?

Do you agree that parents have the right to encourage their children to take such irrevocable steps when their children are too young to understand what this means for their future?

Define respect.
Do you see respect as a two way process, or is it only trans who should have their rights respected?
e.g.
Do you agree that children (or anyone) should have the right to compel others to use words or terminology they know are lies, for fear of punishment?

Galaxy

What does that even mean. If you mean the right to social transition, that is against NHS guidance.

"What is the NHS guidance on social transition?

Involve parents before pupils 'socially transition' at school, says NHS England. Schools should not allow gender-questioning children to “socially transition” without their parents' involvement, according to NHS training and guidance on how staff should respond to pupils exploring their gender identity.

There is no guidance on outside school.

The NHS have moved from the socially affirmation model, they began this after the publication of the interim cass report.