Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

I neither made, nor feel it appropriate, nor would ever to suggest comparisons in my post above!

Doodledog

*I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.*

That is twisting my words, as you are aware. Can you show me where I said anything of the sort, please?

I said that course content should be challenged, but I don't see how students can dictate what should be discussed. If they decide things like that, what are they learning?

I also asked whether the concept of academic freedom was something with which you are familiar, but you have avoided answering, in favour of trying to equate biological realism with Holocaust denial.

Sorry if I misinterpreted
students who are scared of not getting Firsts, NSS scores driving viability of courses, students wanting to opt out of assessments they find difficult, balancing that with the needs of the professional bodies the same students want to accredit their courses, and now you are saying that they should be able to shout down the staff teaching them and have them removed if 'they don't like someone
But it sounded to me like students were not allowed a voice.

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing presumably they did that politely, not anonymously, dressed head to toe in black, masked up and spraying pink over a university building? Did they also tell her what they were prepared to learn and what they weren't?

Glorianny

Doodledog

I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.

That is twisting my words, as you are aware. Can you show me where I said anything of the sort, please?

I said that course content should be challenged, but I don't see how students can dictate what should be discussed. If they decide things like that, what are they learning?

I also asked whether the concept of academic freedom was something with which you are familiar, but you have avoided answering, in favour of trying to equate biological realism with Holocaust denial.

Sorry if I misinterpreted
students who are scared of not getting Firsts, NSS scores driving viability of courses, students wanting to opt out of assessments they find difficult, balancing that with the needs of the professional bodies the same students want to accredit their courses, and now you are saying that they should be able to shout down the staff teaching them and have them removed if 'they don't like someone
But it sounded to me like students were not allowed a voice.

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing

I'm puzzled. Did you not mean the bit about course content, but that students should 'have a voice' in whether they get firsts, should tell professional bodies how they prefer to be assessed, and whether the coffee in the JCR is to their taste should be allowed to influence their judgement of the course they're studying?

What has custom and practice in Japan got to do with KS being driven out of her career?

Rosie51

^Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing^ presumably they did that politely, not anonymously, dressed head to toe in black, masked up and spraying pink over a university building? Did they also tell her what they were prepared to learn and what they weren't?

I wonder why you had to try presenting the protest the students staged as violent? It began with posters, which the university removed. The students then wore masks to stage a peaceful protest because they feared repercussions from the university.

What has custom and practice in Japan got to do with KS being driven out of her career?
Nothing. It’s just another diversion. Seems like a useful tactic to avoid admitting anything you don’t like.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Doodledog

I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.

That is twisting my words, as you are aware. Can you show me where I said anything of the sort, please?

I said that course content should be challenged, but I don't see how students can dictate what should be discussed. If they decide things like that, what are they learning?

I also asked whether the concept of academic freedom was something with which you are familiar, but you have avoided answering, in favour of trying to equate biological realism with Holocaust denial.

Sorry if I misinterpreted
students who are scared of not getting Firsts, NSS scores driving viability of courses, students wanting to opt out of assessments they find difficult, balancing that with the needs of the professional bodies the same students want to accredit their courses, and now you are saying that they should be able to shout down the staff teaching them and have them removed if 'they don't like someone
But it sounded to me like students were not allowed a voice.

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing

I'm puzzled. Did you not mean the bit about course content, but that students should 'have a voice' in whether they get firsts, should tell professional bodies how they prefer to be assessed, and whether the coffee in the JCR is to their taste should be allowed to influence their judgement of the course they're studying?

What has custom and practice in Japan got to do with KS being driven out of her career?

I think it's odd to support free speech for tutors but deny it to students. It happened in the 60s, but I thought we had moved on from "Tutors and your elders are always right" to appreciating the voices of young people. But apparently not.

What has custom and practice in Japan got to do with KS being driven out of her career?
It was more to do with your comment about students accrediting their courses. They have accredited both course and tutor in Japan. Perhaps you need to consider why that would worry you.

Rosie51

I watched a program recently where the main action was taking place in a science lab in a Scottish university. One of the professors was evaluated by her students.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing presumably they did that politely, not anonymously, dressed head to toe in black, masked up and spraying pink over a university building? Did they also tell her what they were prepared to learn and what they weren't?

I wonder why you had to try presenting the protest the students staged as violent? It began with posters, which the university removed. The students then wore masks to stage a peaceful protest because they feared repercussions from the university.

I haven't presented the protest as violent, I'm merely describing the photo in Pink News that you linked to. Those students are dressed exactly as I've described spraying a pink substance on university property. If you don't want the photo to be used as an example why on earth did you link to it? Somewhat bizarre !

I didn't say I was worried. And I don't need you to tell me what I should consider.

I said that the NSS is used to evaluate course, and some of the comments are about things like coffee, or lectures starting at 9.00am. I assume that this is something else about which you have no experience but a vocal opinion?

What do you understand by the term 'academic freedom', and is it something that you value? I asked that ages ago, but you have chosen not to answer but to twist my words in one of your choreographed dances.

Sighting Japan as some kind of centre of excellence on student feedback is rather surprising
Japan has high levels of anxiety and other mh problems amongst its student population. Pressure to succeed and lack of independence
. Psychologists suspect lack of strong attachments are key.

Iam64

Sighting Japan as some kind of centre of excellence on student feedback is rather surprising
Japan has high levels of anxiety and other mh problems amongst its student population. Pressure to succeed and lack of independence
. Psychologists suspect lack of strong attachments are key.

I don't think I cited it as a centre of excellence. Just as somewhere where students have evaluated their lecturers for a long time.

Well quite, Iam, but when defending a point of view that has been proven wrong (eg that puberty blockers and binders are fully reversible and harmless) every passing straw has to be clutched. If we all start discussing the Japanese education system it might detract from the more relevant question of academic freedom and its importance in a democracy.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing presumably they did that politely, not anonymously, dressed head to toe in black, masked up and spraying pink over a university building? Did they also tell her what they were prepared to learn and what they weren't?

I wonder why you had to try presenting the protest the students staged as violent? It began with posters, which the university removed. The students then wore masks to stage a peaceful protest because they feared repercussions from the university.

I haven't presented the protest as violent, I'm merely describing the photo in Pink News that you linked to. Those students are dressed exactly as I've described spraying a pink substance on university property. If you don't want the photo to be used as an example why on earth did you link to it? Somewhat bizarre !

Ah well some of us read the text and realised that only happened after the university removed posters. There was also a photo of a line of students standing with placards quite peacefully. Did you miss that one?

Doodledog

Well quite, Iam, but when defending a point of view that has been proven wrong (eg that puberty blockers and binders are fully reversible and harmless) every passing straw has to be clutched. If we all start discussing the Japanese education system it might detract from the more relevant question of academic freedom and its importance in a democracy.

I have never said they were fully reversible I have said that for some children they offer a breathing space and a way of adjusting and feeling more comfortable with their body. But there is some evidence that there are children who have stopped taking them and not transitioned

Doodledog

I didn't say I was worried. And I don't need you to tell me what I should consider.

I said that the NSS is used to evaluate course, and some of the comments are about things like coffee, or lectures starting at 9.00am. I assume that this is something else about which you have no experience but a vocal opinion?

What do you understand by the term 'academic freedom', and is it something that you value? I asked that ages ago, but you have chosen not to answer but to twist my words in one of your choreographed dances.

I love the way when you say something you either regret or don't realise the implications of you then resort to "you are twisting my words".

As usual accompanied by the "You aren't qualified or experienced enough to have an opinion."

Academic freedom is always subject to the limitation of not causing distress or discrimination to any group of people.
Which was why I asked about a Holocaust denier who might cause distress to Jewish students,
Trans students regard Kathleen Stock as.denying their existence and are distressed by her.

Doodledog

Well quite, Iam, but when defending a point of view that has been proven wrong (eg that puberty blockers and binders are fully reversible and harmless) every passing straw has to be clutched. If we all start discussing the Japanese education system it might detract from the more relevant question of academic freedom and its importance in a democracy.

Quite.

Nobody denies the existence of transpeople- just that they can change sex. Which they can’t.

And please stop telling me what I think. I do not regret saying anything on this thread, and I am not ‘resorting’ to anything. You are twisting my words and picking out one part of my post instead of dealing with all of it. You implied that I think it is ‘awful’ that students ’have a voice’, which totally misrepresents what I actually said, which was far more specific and based on decades of experience, which I don’t think you share? I am perfectly happy for anyone to have a voice, including biological realists, but I don’t think that providing an education is possible if students refuse to even listen to people with whose views they disagree. That is denying them a voice and offering an unbalanced view to young adults who are supposed to be learning and making up their minds. How can children (or adults for that matter) get proper help in clinical environments if expert opinion is silenced and only the views sanctioned by zealots are allowed to be taught? Should KS’s books be burned in your opinion?

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing presumably they did that politely, not anonymously, dressed head to toe in black, masked up and spraying pink over a university building? Did they also tell her what they were prepared to learn and what they weren't?

I wonder why you had to try presenting the protest the students staged as violent? It began with posters, which the university removed. The students then wore masks to stage a peaceful protest because they feared repercussions from the university.

I haven't presented the protest as violent, I'm merely describing the photo in Pink News that you linked to. Those students are dressed exactly as I've described spraying a pink substance on university property. If you don't want the photo to be used as an example why on earth did you link to it? Somewhat bizarre !

Ah well some of us read the text and realised that only happened after the university removed posters. There was also a photo of a line of students standing with placards quite peacefully. Did you miss that one?

When I clicked the link all I got was that one photo. I tried clicking on various parts but never got to any text? I did think it an odd thing to link to.......
I still did not present the protest as violent, care to apologise for that inaccurate accusation?

I had the same experience the first time I opened the link, Rosie.

I’m fascinated by the idea that Glorianny doesn’t see an act of vandalism as wrong.

Glorianny, if your house was sprayed any colour at all because people didn’t like something you said, would you commend them?

Mollygo

I’m fascinated by the idea that Glorianny doesn’t see an act of vandalism as wrong.

Glorianny, if your house was sprayed any colour at all because people didn’t like something you said, would you commend them?

My house is a private dwelling. A university is a building funded and maintained by the fees students pay. A better parallel might be would I mind them spraying their own house, which I wouldn't.
Honestly it's student protest. I realise I'm probably older than you but I do remember 1968 and the student protests then. It's something students should do.

Doodledog

Nobody denies the existence of transpeople- just that they can change sex. Which they can’t.

And please stop telling me what I think. I do not regret saying anything on this thread, and I am not ‘resorting’ to anything. You are twisting my words and picking out one part of my post instead of dealing with all of it. You implied that I think it is ‘awful’ that students ’have a voice’, which totally misrepresents what I actually said, which was far more specific and based on decades of experience, which I don’t think you share? I am perfectly happy for anyone to have a voice, including biological realists, but I don’t think that providing an education is possible if students refuse to even listen to people with whose views they disagree. That is denying them a voice and offering an unbalanced view to young adults who are supposed to be learning and making up their minds. How can children (or adults for that matter) get proper help in clinical environments if expert opinion is silenced and only the views sanctioned by zealots are allowed to be taught? Should KS’s books be burned in your opinion?

Sorry the perception of Kathleen Stock by transpeople is that she denies their existence.
It is also the view expressed by 100 academics when she was disinvited from speaking
We believe that trans students should not be made to debate their existence. We also refute that this is a free speech issue - disinviting someone is not preventing them from speaking
I realise Stock does not recognise her views as doing this but others do.

No one''s books should be burned. Why would I think anything like that. Stock is free to write or speak as she likes wherever people want to listen to her. She's not free to do so where students find her views discriminatory and threatening.

In the interests of free speech would you expect black students to welcome a member of the Klu Klux Klan? Or would you expect them to demonstrate and refuse to listen?

I have been wondering (and it really is a question so if there is evidence please post it) why if puberty blockers are prescribed for a 7 year old, who is going through puberty too early, and might be upset about it, is it wrong to prescribe them for a 13 year old who is going through puberty and is upset about it?

Another, not unexpected evasion there Glorianny.

Regardless of whether your house is a private building or not would you considerate it an act of vandalism if it was sprayed because somebody didn’t like something you said?