Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

Syracute - provide evidence please that Dr Cass was politically motivated
Talk about wild unfounded accusations because an extensive investigation by a respected paediatrician doesn’t reach the conclusions yiu wanted it to

All you have to say is that someone is 'politically motivated'

It is a form of McCarthyism, that flourished in the USA in the 1950s, all you had to do was accuse someone of being a communist and despite any evidence behind the accusation, you were branded, your career destroyed and many were forced into exile.

I am going to suggest that Syracute is politically motivated making the claim he/she has made against Dr Cass.

Mollygo

Glorianny Are you now saying that all those tomboys were would-be trans? That’s an unreasonable, claim even for you.

And the ex-tomboys on here are affiirming (as are people I know in real life) that they were NOT, in fact, would-be trans but just envious of the boys they knew who did not face the restrictions placed on girls.

I can't answer for anyone I have never met who went on later to want to transition, nor for any GN posters who did and are keeping a low profile - perhaps some transitioned, perhaps after puberty some decided that they were gay and are now in long-term same-sex realationships?

The only GN poster who openly stated that she was trans was MaryXXY - who was one of the comparatively small percentage who were genuinely intersex, but she had decided after being brought up as male to live totally as female. MaryXXY has not posted for some time.

I understand puberty blockers are used to delay early onset puberty, which often is accompanied by stunted growth. Hormone therapy is a complex science.

The general public is now at the stage of regarding transition as normal ,like we now regard homosexuality..It took many years before the general public could regard homosexuality as normal.

You're missing the point, Caleo

This is about children being under the age of consent, perhaps in a stage of flux as we all were, and being too young and immature to understand the ramifications of such life-changing decisions.

There are claims that the Cass report had an agenda to fulfil that the conservatives would support.

There are claims that
Means the conspiracy theorists are at work.

What is the view on transgender issues on your side of The Atlantic, Syracute?

If there is any political motivation here, it comes from the pharmaceutical companies that want to keep flogging the drugs.

Oh yes, they'll have an agenda!

Elegran

Mollygo

Glorianny Are you now saying that all those tomboys were would-be trans? That’s an unreasonable, claim even for you.

And the ex-tomboys on here are affiirming (as are people I know in real life) that they were NOT, in fact, would-be trans but just envious of the boys they knew who did not face the restrictions placed on girls.

I can't answer for anyone I have never met who went on later to want to transition, nor for any GN posters who did and are keeping a low profile - perhaps some transitioned, perhaps after puberty some decided that they were gay and are now in long-term same-sex realationships?

The only GN poster who openly stated that she was trans was MaryXXY - who was one of the comparatively small percentage who were genuinely intersex, but she had decided after being brought up as male to live totally as female. MaryXXY has not posted for some time.

Of course I'm not saying all the tomboys are trans. Quite the reverse I'm saying that if, as some people claim, this is just a stage in development and children will grow out. of it, offering them a respite from the distress they are feeling by postponing the process of puberty and offering them counselling to help would seem to be the best way of dealing with that stage.

Of course it may not be just a stage.

Caleo
The general public is now at the stage of regarding transition as normal

What a sweeping unevidenced statement, Caleo.

I could equally say that the general public is at the stage of regarding being able to change sex as a lie. It would at least have the element of truth.

Rosie51

^I can always tell when I've suggested something workable. The denials always include (as a polite term) inaccuracies.^
Are you accusing me of inaccuracy? If so please detail it so I can address your point.

Many children are on powerful drugs which there is little or no research about. wow this is a powerful statement to make. Can you please provide evidence of the many children and the little or no researched drugs they're on?

Here's a paper about the drugs prescribed to children Rosie51
They are ranked in order of their suitability.
evidence.nihr.ac.uk/alert/psychiatric-drugs-given-to-children-and-adolescents-have-been-ranked-in-order-of-safety/

ADHD has been treated with Ritalin in children. There are long term effects for this medication. jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2811812#:~:text=The%20results%20of%20this%20population,was%20higher%20for%20stimulant%20medications.

I am not trans, but I was more than a tomboy. I wanted to be a boy from a very young age and had even chosen the name I wanted to be known by. Even as an adult I have been accused, in the past, of 'thinking like a man', whatever that might mean.

I am incredibly glad that there were no adults around encouraging me to think I might become a boy because my body is that of a female heterosexual, although I have always been very grateful for having small breasts. One of my worries when I was going through puberty was that my breasts would be as large as my mother's. perfectly average sized ones.

Personally, I am glad that the only option for me was to integrate what I was born with rather than seek to medicalise myself to try and convince myself I was physically what i was not.

Many years ago my sister worked for a small heritage organisation where her boss was in a female gay relationship. Her partner, however, always dressed and presented as a man,

Nobody was bothered by it. Going about her ordinary life where her sex was irrelevant, she was seen and treated as a man, as she was in the work and social world she lived in, where everyone knew what the circumstances were.

I think she was far more integrated and accepted than many of those who nowadays seem so determined to make a big song and dance about being trans.

Ritalin was disastrous for a boy I used to teach, though it wasn’t realised till later. Using Ritalin as an excuse for using other future life affecting drugs and surgery is like a sick joke.

Glorianny

Elegran

Mollygo

Glorianny Are you now saying that all those tomboys were would-be trans? That’s an unreasonable, claim even for you.

And the ex-tomboys on here are affiirming (as are people I know in real life) that they were NOT, in fact, would-be trans but just envious of the boys they knew who did not face the restrictions placed on girls.

I can't answer for anyone I have never met who went on later to want to transition, nor for any GN posters who did and are keeping a low profile - perhaps some transitioned, perhaps after puberty some decided that they were gay and are now in long-term same-sex realationships?

The only GN poster who openly stated that she was trans was MaryXXY - who was one of the comparatively small percentage who were genuinely intersex, but she had decided after being brought up as male to live totally as female. MaryXXY has not posted for some time.

Of course I'm not saying all the tomboys are trans. Quite the reverse I'm saying that if, as some people claim, this is just a stage in development and children will grow out. of it, offering them a respite from the distress they are feeling by postponing the process of puberty and offering them counselling to help would seem to be the best way of dealing with that stage.

Of course it may not be just a stage.

If is is not "just a stage" then finding out exactly what is at the root of it is needed. Starting them routinely onto a route of medication is a risky one. It has been shown that when puberty-delaying drugs are given the children mostly progress to other genderising treatments. (I don't think this applies when it is for developmental early puberty)

What will be, will be, but being too affirmatory too soon to children who don't yet understand the total implications of a life-changing decision would not be in their unterests.

The proposed legislation in Scotland (the consultation opportunity is now ended, so its introduction and ratification is in the hands of the legislators - so anyone who wants their opinion heard should be lobbying MSPs ) would make it a criminal offence to give counsel which is not affirmatory to transition.

Glorianny I'd suggest that the two links you provided would indicate the very opposite of little to no research. This is in stark contrast to the mantra of puberty blockers being safe and fully reversible.

if, as some people claim, this is just a stage in development and children will grow out. of it, offering them a respite from the distress they are feeling by postponing the process of puberty and offering them counselling to help would seem to be the best way of dealing with that stage. while this sounds an OK way to go, it is the very process of going through puberty that eventually resolves the distress for the great majority. Delaying it will not help, puberty cannot be switched on and off like a light switch. For how long would you suggest delaying puberty in the circumstance you describe? Who would you have qualify for this delaying treatment, children who felt they were trans or any child who just didn't want to experience it? I don't think I've ever heard a single soul say they enjoyed going through puberty.

Mollygo

Ritalin was disastrous for a boy I used to teach, though it wasn’t realised till later. Using Ritalin as an excuse for using other future life affecting drugs and surgery is like a sick joke.

I wasn't using anything as an excuse I was replying to a question.
The long term effects of medicating ADHD are unmeasurable.
However I've seen very few protests about it.

And just how did surgery get in there?

Rosie51

Glorianny I'd suggest that the two links you provided would indicate the very opposite of little to no research. This is in stark contrast to the mantra of puberty blockers being safe and fully reversible.

if, as some people claim, this is just a stage in development and children will grow out. of it, offering them a respite from the distress they are feeling by postponing the process of puberty and offering them counselling to help would seem to be the best way of dealing with that stage. while this sounds an OK way to go, it is the very process of going through puberty that eventually resolves the distress for the great majority. Delaying it will not help, puberty cannot be switched on and off like a light switch. For how long would you suggest delaying puberty in the circumstance you describe? Who would you have qualify for this delaying treatment, children who felt they were trans or any child who just didn't want to experience it? I don't think I've ever heard a single soul say they enjoyed going through puberty.

I didn't suggest only delaying puberty I was very clear that counselling would be necessary.
I wonder why you are so averse to providing the support some children might benefit from? After all if children are not really trans and only struggling to cope with puberty they could be given support to help with the problems. I don't think we are talking about children who simply don't like going through puberty, only those who know the changes their body will go through, and reject them totally as not who they want to be.

As for the research it is comparatively recent and lists numerous drugs children have been prescribed, some of which are not suitable. Proof that children have been on unresearched drugs for years.

I wonder why you are so averse to providing the support some children might benefit from? I'm not at all averse to providing support. It was the trans advocates and allies who asserted only immediate positive affirmation was the correct way to go, and who wanted any type of counselling banned. Now you seem to be advocating counselling.

I don't think we are talking about children who simply don't like going through puberty, only those who know the changes their body will go through, and reject them totally as not who they want to be. but it's only by going through puberty that the majority of children who feel like this will relieve their distress. Many will realise they're gay or lesbians. Stopping natural puberty to follow up with cross sex hormones is not going through an opposite sex puberty, that window of opportunity has gone.

As for the research it is comparatively recent and lists numerous drugs children have been prescribed, some of which are not suitable. Proof that children have been on unresearched drugs for years. so that's a justification to keep using unresearched puberty blockers on children now? I despair.

It’s tedious to be constantly and treated as though none of us are aware of the risks associated with drugs like Ritalin. We are parents, grandparents, teachers, social workers. , therapists, camhs workers . Because we don’t share the minority view here doesnt mean we are wrong

Rosie51

^I wonder why you are so averse to providing the support some children might benefit from?^ I'm not at all averse to providing support. It was the trans advocates and allies who asserted only immediate positive affirmation was the correct way to go, and who wanted any type of counselling banned. Now you seem to be advocating counselling.

I don't think we are talking about children who simply don't like going through puberty, only those who know the changes their body will go through, and reject them totally as not who they want to be. but it's only by going through puberty that the majority of children who feel like this will relieve their distress. Many will realise they're gay or lesbians. Stopping natural puberty to follow up with cross sex hormones is not going through an opposite sex puberty, that window of opportunity has gone.

As for the research it is comparatively recent and lists numerous drugs children have been prescribed, some of which are not suitable. Proof that children have been on unresearched drugs for years. so that's a justification to keep using unresearched puberty blockers on children now? I despair.

I have always advocated proper counselling and support for children. Can you show me anywhere I haven't?

Children often realise they are gay or lesbian way before puberty, some don't realise until they are much older. I really don't see what that has to do with it. Who has said cross hormones must follow?

You posted that using unresearched drugs on children was wrong. I told you it happened. You asked me for proof. I gave it to you. I at no time used it as justification, simply contradicted your wrongful belief that the trans issue was the only use of such drugs on children. The only reason it has been brought into the thread was because you regard the use of puberty blockers as something extraordinary. It isn't children are put on unresearched drugs all the time. Blaming me for correcting your lack of knowledge is ridiculous. (But I can see why you'd want to do it)

Glorianny

. Proof that children have been on unresearched drugs for years.

Are you saying that that makes it right to continue drugging children who don’t understand the potential outcome of the drugs on their future lives.

Who has said cross hormones must follow? No-one on here has used the word "must"- but it has been said more than once, and from statistics, not from guesswork, that they DO follow, very, very often.

Glorianny simply contradicted your wrongful belief that the trans issue was the only use of such drugs on children. I never expressed any such belief. I did ask for your evidence of many children being given drugs with little to no research on them There had obviously been some, (more than none or a little) research to enable a list of preferred over not preferred drugs.

It's ridiculous the lengths to which you'll go to avoid owning your support for the transitioning of confused children and lack of knowledge about the process and purpose of puberty (but I can see why you'd want to) . You have supported PBs and then cross sex hormones for children. If administered early enough they will be denied adult sexual function and likely left sterile.

Who has said cross hormones must follow? well at the Tavistock it was virtually all those who started PBs, so no it may not have been compulsory but it was usual practice or are you going to deny that too? Immediate positive affirmation of a child being trans does reinforce the idea, and the logical conclusion is to progress on to cross sex hormones.

Just because something was done does not mean it must or will be done.

It is so interesting how any attempt to deal with the issue is rejected with really unfounded and desperate attempts to prove there isn't a solution.

These children are not going to go away. Trans issues will continue to be there. There is now no real support for children in England. Some will no doubt be taken abroad for treatment, some will access private treatment, some will use the dark web and will be given god knows what, which they will probably share with their friends. But you seem quite happy that nothing will be done. I suppose it makes many of you feel better claiming that the root cause is transactivism. Then you can pretend that things will get better, when it's obvious they won't.