Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

Imagine if cisgenders were expected to tell researchers what their genitalia looked like!

Rudeness of referring to cis has already been dealt with and apologised for, but why would anyone ask a male or a female about their genitalia?
They aren’t lying about their sex, so you’d know without asking.
With a TW they might have retained male equipment, or had a construction likewise a TM might have retained natural female equipment or had a construction.
If they referred to themselves more accurately as Trans-identified~Man- TIM, a man who is male but says he is a woman, or a TIW, a woman who is female but says she is a man, it would be more honest and remove some of the need for questions.

Caleo

It is wrong to expect anyone at all to discuss what their genitals look like.

---------------

Actually, since modern medicine discovered plastic surgery, and the Pill .sex change is an option.

I assume you've educated professor Lord Robert Winston on your superior knowledge, as he has stated categorically that you cannot change sex.

Why would anyone be asked what their genitals looked like for a research project? All I can think of is to find out their self-perception, as otherwise it would make sense to have a medical person look at them, so that whatever was being looked at could be recorded objectively. I am at a loss to know what sort of research would require this level of intrusiveness though. I don't suppose you have a link?

Mollygo

^Being told to go to Cahms or mental health services is a joke as they are not able to cope with those already on their waitlists^

This is true for all mental health patients and it’s causing immense stress for all of them.
I’m just checking; Are you saying that gender dysphoria is a mental health issue?

No, I am not saying that gender dysphoria is a mental health dysphoria. This is what a letter is saying from the NHS . It quotes that anyone who is suffering from gender dysphoria distress should refer themselves to their GP, mental heath services crisis team or CAHMS. Found this in a BBC article and the Guardian.

Syracute thanks for the sources.
So it is being defined by them as a mental health issue.

I think you only have to read a few of the trans gender threads on GN to realise why trans people want to keep quiet and not share their medical records. I assume the clinic is very aware of their requirement. Why would you if you are constantly linked with sex offenders, berated about lady dicks, informed you can never be the gender you have transitioned to, tell anyone about your medical history? Not to mention all the things said about transwomen keeping quiet-well that's what they are doing.

From the Telegraph today:

“ THE NHS’s most senior adviser on transgender health refused to share data about his clinic’s patients with the Cass Review.

Dr Derek Glidden is clinical director of the Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health.

Dr Hilary Cass said efforts to track the journeys of about 9,000 children who went on to be seen by adult services were “thwarted” by the refusal of clinics to provide evidence. Researchers were trying to establish the long-term consequences of medical interventions by seeking data from adult clinics, which take patients from the age of 16.

Six of the seven clinics which run adult gender services refused to comply with the request.

They include the Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health, one of the leading centres in the country.

Dr Derek Glidden, its clinical director, refused to comply despite being NHS England’s gender dysphoria national speciality adviser.

He chairs the NHS England clinical Reference Group on gender dysphoria, while another of its five members, Dr Laura Charlton, the clinical lead at Leeds Gender Identity Clinic, also refused to participate in the research.

The Nottingham clinic has been key to the rollout of a wave of experimental trans services. It has links to the Indigo Gender Service in Manchester, which describes itself as “trans and non-binary led”, and to a recent scheme in Sussex that has put GPs in charge.

Campaigners have raised concerns about the pilot schemes, with one likening them to “the Wild West”, saying responsibility for life-changing decisions was being handed to those with inadequate specialist knowledge.”

Caleo

It is wrong to expect anyone at all to discuss what their genitals look like.

---------------

Actually, since modern medicine discovered plastic surgery, and the Pill .sex change is an option.

🤣🤣🤣

I took the Pill at one time. Does that mean I’m now a man? Really, the above is the funniest thing I’ve read today,

(Cont,)

“ The clinical leads of the NHS Gender Identity Clinics in Northampton, Newcastle and Sheffield also refused to cooperate with the Cass Review, as did the discredited clinic at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust.

Just one of the seven units – the Laurels Gender Identity Clinic in Exeter – agreed to supply any evidence.

On the eve of the Cass Review, NHS England’s national director of specialised commissioning wrote to NHS hospital leaders operating adult clinics, telling them that “mandatory action” would be taken if clinics did not comply.

The letter, seen by The Telegraph, says clinical leads at the clinics failed to co-operate with researchers.

It said: “Despite the best efforts of the research team, the necessary cooperation from the clinical leads within the Gender Dysphoria Clinics was not forthcoming, despite – and contrary to – positive assurances from CMOs [chief medical officers].”

Victoria Atkins, the Health Secretary, yesterday said the failure of the clinics to comply was “disgraceful”.

NHS England said it has now issued instructions to all clinics to take part in the research.

Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health, Dr Glidden and Dr Charlton were approached for comment.”

Blimey. I’m really shocked to read this. But not (really) surprised.
Are you?

These awful tentacles are spread far and wide. It’s abuse of children IMO. Prosecutions need to be brought.

Urmstongran

(Cont,)

“ The clinical leads of the NHS Gender Identity Clinics in Northampton, Newcastle and Sheffield also refused to cooperate with the Cass Review, as did the discredited clinic at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust.

Just one of the seven units – the Laurels Gender Identity Clinic in Exeter – agreed to supply any evidence.

On the eve of the Cass Review, NHS England’s national director of specialised commissioning wrote to NHS hospital leaders operating adult clinics, telling them that “mandatory action” would be taken if clinics did not comply.

The letter, seen by The Telegraph, says clinical leads at the clinics failed to co-operate with researchers.

It said: “Despite the best efforts of the research team, the necessary cooperation from the clinical leads within the Gender Dysphoria Clinics was not forthcoming, despite – and contrary to – positive assurances from CMOs [chief medical officers].”

Victoria Atkins, the Health Secretary, yesterday said the failure of the clinics to comply was “disgraceful”.

NHS England said it has now issued instructions to all clinics to take part in the research.

Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health, Dr Glidden and Dr Charlton were approached for comment.”

Blimey. I’m really shocked to read this. But not (really) surprised.
Are you?

These awful tentacles are spread far and wide. It’s abuse of children IMO. Prosecutions need to be brought.

These are adult gender clinics what have children to do with it?

Would anyone really want any medical professional to share information about their medical treatment without their permission?

No one can be instructed to take part in research.
Seeking consent is fundamental in research involving people. Participants’ consent is legally valid and professionally acceptable only if they have the capacity to decide whether to take part in the research, have been properly informed, and have agreed to participate without pressure or coercion

Seeking consent is fundamental in research involving people. Participants’ consent is legally valid and professionally acceptable only if they have the capacity to decide whether to take part in the research, have been properly informed, and have agreed to participate without pressure or coercion
Yes, but data (generalised) from medical records is routinely used in research. If someone joins a double blind study, or similar they have to be informed, but if their records are used, say, to count the number of patients with a particular illness, or who are registered as smokers, drinkers, over 50's or whatever. They cannot be identified.

If you choose to opt out of having your records used in research in ways which may identify you you can do so.

What has this got to do with clinics refusing to co-operate with research, though?

And it is interesting to see someone argued against the right to patients having informed consent about who examines them clutch at straws to defend the lack of accountability here.

As soon as we didn’t actually opt out of GPs etc sharing info, we all knew it would be shared.

It’s anonymous, or supposed to be, but our health info is all over the place.😗

. . .our health info is all over the place

Of course it is!

This isn't about transpeople opting out because people are asking them to describe their genitals - that's bonkers. It's just a way to attack the Cass report and defend the indefensible.

Doodledog

*Seeking consent is fundamental in research involving people. Participants’ consent is legally valid and professionally acceptable only if they have the capacity to decide whether to take part in the research, have been properly informed, and have agreed to participate without pressure or coercion*
Yes, but data (generalised) from medical records is routinely used in research. If someone joins a double blind study, or similar they have to be informed, but if their records are used, say, to count the number of patients with a particular illness, or who are registered as smokers, drinkers, over 50's or whatever. They cannot be identified.

If you choose to opt out of having your records used in research in ways which may identify you you can do so.

What has this got to do with clinics refusing to co-operate with research, though?

And it is interesting to see someone argued against the right to patients having informed consent about who examines them clutch at straws to defend the lack of accountability here.

So if the information is already available through GPs why is it necessary to instruct Gender clinics to share theirs?

I have always said that you can object to a physical examination by anyone at any time without giving a reason, and ask for another person to do the examination. Which means even if you somehow thought there was a faint possibility that the person about to examine you was trans,or you just didn't like the look of them, you can ask for someone else.

Do you understand the nature of 'informed' consent? If you don't know what is happening, you can't give consent to it.

I would have thought it obvious that collecting information from a clinic that deals in 'gender' reassignment would be much more efficient than asking all GPs if they have someone on their lists who may have been referred to such a clinic and then collating it. I suspect that you are deliberately misunderstanding my posts.

Glorianny

No one can be instructed to take part in research.
^Seeking consent is fundamental in research involving people. Participants’ consent is legally valid and professionally acceptable only if they have the capacity to decide whether to take part in the research, have been properly informed, and have agreed to participate without pressure or coercion^

The NHS must reveal the fate of 9,000 transgender young people treated by the controversial Tavistock clinic, the Health Secretary has said in the wake of the Cass review.
The landmark report published on Wednesday found adult gender clinics had refused to disclose whether transgender people who started their treatment as children later changed their minds about transitioning, or went on to suffer serious mental health problems.
Victoria Atkins, the Health Secretary, met Amanda Pritchard, the chief executive of NHS England, on Wednesday to tell her “nothing less than full co-operation by those clinics in the research is acceptable. (Source = The Telegraph)

Hmm. It seems that whereas nobody can be instructed to take part, it is as I said - their anonymised data can be used when they have done so. As ever.

WhenIwasYounger wrote:

"No it isn’t, Caleo!! You can change gender, although some people prefer to declare that they have done so rather than put any serious effort into the very difficult process, but no matter how much plastic surgey or hormones you have, your chromosomes will ALWAYS stay the same! They declare your sex and cannot be changed. Ever."

I believe you are correct . However most people don't define sex by chromosomes . Chromosomes don't directly affect how we feel, For most practical purposes including our feelings, we mostly define sex by hormone levels. that's to say mainly levels of testosterone and oestrogen

In the 1950s dertain people who were deemed to be sexually abnormal were forced to take hormones that were supposed to make them normal. The science that produced The Pill and HRT was also used for a cruel purpose.

However most people don't define sex by chromosomes


I cannot believe I read that!

Chromosomes don't directly affect how we feel

And? That's presumably why we talk about gender, not sex.

Caleo

WhenIwasYounger wrote:

"No it isn’t, Caleo!! You can change gender, although some people prefer to declare that they have done so rather than put any serious effort into the very difficult process, but no matter how much plastic surgey or hormones you have, your chromosomes will ALWAYS stay the same! They declare your sex and cannot be changed. Ever."

I believe you are correct . However most people don't define sex by chromosomes . Chromosomes don't directly affect how we feel, For most practical purposes including our feelings, we mostly define sex by hormone levels. that's to say mainly levels of testosterone and oestrogen

However most people don't define sex by chromosomes . Chromosomes don't directly affect how we feel, For most practical purposes including our feelings, we mostly define sex by hormone levels. that's to say mainly levels of testosterone and oestrogen

Nobody I know defines their sex by hormone levels, I've not a clue what mine are! I define my sex in the normal way. I was born with external female genitalia, so was registered female. At puberty I grew breasts, started to menstruate, my hips widened. I was attracted to opposite sex people, married one, and was fortunate to gestate children.

Can you honestly say you know what your hormone levels are? Is a man with very low testosterone levels not a man, or a woman with low oestrogen not a woman? What are they? Does a woman with a high testosterone reading become a man?

Chromosomes are unchangeable and define sex. Gender, as Callistemon21 says, is different, and can be defined by choice, hormones and feelings, at least to some extent. Caleo perhaps needs to study the science, and then perhaps achieve accuracy in that (unlike in copying posters' names )

Callistemon, it's only in recent times that people have heard of hormones let alone chromosomes, yet since the dawn of recorded history there have been people who felt they were another sex .