Sunak V Starmer

TBH I've got really mixed feelings about this. Many of the small specialist schools are providing a service for children who are not well catered for in the state system and good special needs teaching can be very expensive because it can only be done with lots of staff. Some children need one to one teaching and having been chair of governors in a small rural school I know only too well that the state funding for these children is inadequate and to be blunt, they can and often do affect the quality of what is on offer to the other children. I think lots of people think independent schools are for rich parents to buy advantages for their children and some are but there are lots of parents who struggle to pay fees for their children because the local state school is not meeting their needs in some way.

Question was - if you had loved ones on a long waiting list for
surgery?

No mention of death

It did badly in 2017, the issue on which it failed was safeguarding.

Since then it has been judged 'good' in subsequent inspections

reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/27/121251

People claiming it to be a failing school are being very selective in their choice of evidence.

However, if it is failing to attract enough pupils to make it a viable business it is an historic failing and not one to be blamed on a future government's policies.

The average, or perhaps below average, number of SEN pupils it attracts could be due to a number of factors, including the possibility of improved SEN provision in the local state schools. I certainly wouldn't argue that it shouldn't be allowed to close solely on the strength of its SEN provision.

Oh, sorry, I had to reboot my laptop and in the process lost the post I was responding to, which was MisAdventure's at 10.42

Whitewavemark2

ronib

Likewise MaizieD
You may be aware that Starmer has made some very dubious statements about private health and using it to keep his own parents alive.
Basically he would prefer his relatives to die rather than use private healthcare! Strange guy.

You are beginning to sound like Trump.

Starmer made no such claims.

What I'm more aware of, ronib is that you sometimes appear to be making it up as you write.

I still don't know WTF your initial response to me was about.

ronib

Wwm2 what did Starmer say then?

He was asked this question in the first tv debate. Sunak will pay for private healthcare to save a relative’s life and Starmer won’t.
Outrageous.

Sigh

This is my last reply.

You are entirely missing the point.

What he is saying is that if he becomes prime minister, and managing the NHS queues it would be morally wrong for him to jump the queue. It is a philosophical position. You might not agree nor like it but it is what it is. He is the same about private education.

Frankly it is the only answer that any sensible person would make because with regard to A&E, end of life, cancer, heart and paediatrics the NHS is second to none and in some cases certain treatment is only available in the NHS.

He isn’t preventing you from using either nor anyone else for that matter.

I think this has now been flogged to death so I’m over and out with regard to this subject.

foxie48

TBH I've got really mixed feelings about this. Many of the small specialist schools are providing a service for children who are not well catered for in the state system and good special needs teaching can be very expensive because it can only be done with lots of staff. Some children need one to one teaching and having been chair of governors in a small rural school I know only too well that the state funding for these children is inadequate and to be blunt, they can and often do affect the quality of what is on offer to the other children. I think lots of people think independent schools are for rich parents to buy advantages for their children and some are but there are lots of parents who struggle to pay fees for their children because the local state school is not meeting their needs in some way.

An excellent post. I mentioned this proposed VAT increase earlier this morning. My 11 year old granddaughter was diagnosed with dyslexia in Year 5. Her peers were learning age appropriate spellings while she was still struggling with Year 1 spellings. Her parents started on the long and arduous route for professional assessments which resulted in her getting an EHCP. It took 2 years to secure her a place at a private dyslexia specialist school while she steadily lost ground at primary where her needs could not be met. Not by any fault of the school but the system. Her fees are paid for by the local authority but others at her school pay the fees themselves, often with the help of family members. A 20% VAT increase will mean an extra £1.800 per month. Some families will be able to pay this without it causing any problems but there will be some who will have to choose between putting their child back into a state system that isn't fit for them or apply to their local authority for funding using public money. It won't generate the amount of revenue that Starmer says it will if local authorities are footing the bill for children whose parents are currently spending their own money and not relying on the taxpayer.

Frankly it is the only answer that any sensible person would make because with regard to A&E, end of life, cancer, heart and paediatrics the NHS is second to none and in some cases certain treatment is only available in the NHS

This!

Sarnia

foxie48

TBH I've got really mixed feelings about this. Many of the small specialist schools are providing a service for children who are not well catered for in the state system and good special needs teaching can be very expensive because it can only be done with lots of staff. Some children need one to one teaching and having been chair of governors in a small rural school I know only too well that the state funding for these children is inadequate and to be blunt, they can and often do affect the quality of what is on offer to the other children. I think lots of people think independent schools are for rich parents to buy advantages for their children and some are but there are lots of parents who struggle to pay fees for their children because the local state school is not meeting their needs in some way.

An excellent post. I mentioned this proposed VAT increase earlier this morning. My 11 year old granddaughter was diagnosed with dyslexia in Year 5. Her peers were learning age appropriate spellings while she was still struggling with Year 1 spellings. Her parents started on the long and arduous route for professional assessments which resulted in her getting an EHCP. It took 2 years to secure her a place at a private dyslexia specialist school while she steadily lost ground at primary where her needs could not be met. Not by any fault of the school but the system. Her fees are paid for by the local authority but others at her school pay the fees themselves, often with the help of family members. A 20% VAT increase will mean an extra £1.800 per month. Some families will be able to pay this without it causing any problems but there will be some who will have to choose between putting their child back into a state system that isn't fit for them or apply to their local authority for funding using public money. It won't generate the amount of revenue that Starmer says it will if local authorities are footing the bill for children whose parents are currently spending their own money and not relying on the taxpayer.

The other option is to pay for professional help. Both my grandchildren are dyslexic - the eldest severely so. My daughter went down the professional help route as she wasn’t happy about sending them away to school.

Both now educated to post graduate level

Sarnia

foxie48

TBH I've got really mixed feelings about this. Many of the small specialist schools are providing a service for children who are not well catered for in the state system and good special needs teaching can be very expensive because it can only be done with lots of staff. Some children need one to one teaching and having been chair of governors in a small rural school I know only too well that the state funding for these children is inadequate and to be blunt, they can and often do affect the quality of what is on offer to the other children. I think lots of people think independent schools are for rich parents to buy advantages for their children and some are but there are lots of parents who struggle to pay fees for their children because the local state school is not meeting their needs in some way.

An excellent post. I mentioned this proposed VAT increase earlier this morning. My 11 year old granddaughter was diagnosed with dyslexia in Year 5. Her peers were learning age appropriate spellings while she was still struggling with Year 1 spellings. Her parents started on the long and arduous route for professional assessments which resulted in her getting an EHCP. It took 2 years to secure her a place at a private dyslexia specialist school while she steadily lost ground at primary where her needs could not be met. Not by any fault of the school but the system. Her fees are paid for by the local authority but others at her school pay the fees themselves, often with the help of family members. A 20% VAT increase will mean an extra £1.800 per month. Some families will be able to pay this without it causing any problems but there will be some who will have to choose between putting their child back into a state system that isn't fit for them or apply to their local authority for funding using public money. It won't generate the amount of revenue that Starmer says it will if local authorities are footing the bill for children whose parents are currently spending their own money and not relying on the taxpayer.

But that money instead of going into a private business being run for profit will be kept in the public sector. What you are in fact saying is that the few SEN children who are able to find and reach a private school with facilities for meeting their needs, are justified in taking funding out of the public sector, and paying private suppliers, for a service that should be available to all children regardless of where they live.

As far as the NHS goes I don't care if some use private provision provided there is a functioning efficient NHS service which treats people well and within a reasonable timeframe.
Sunak's party hasn't provided that. Hopefully Starmer will.

foxie48

TBH I've got really mixed feelings about this. Many of the small specialist schools are providing a service for children who are not well catered for in the state system and good special needs teaching can be very expensive because it can only be done with lots of staff. Some children need one to one teaching and having been chair of governors in a small rural school I know only too well that the state funding for these children is inadequate and to be blunt, they can and often do affect the quality of what is on offer to the other children. I think lots of people think independent schools are for rich parents to buy advantages for their children and some are but there are lots of parents who struggle to pay fees for their children because the local state school is not meeting their needs in some way.

Well, foxie48, I'm thinking back to the 70s/80s when parents of children with physical disabilities were putting pressure on government to end the way that these children were effectively 'ghettoised' into 'special schools', regardless of their potential.

Unfortunately, as with many government initiatives, the efforts of such parents to get their children into mainstream schools with provision for 'adjustments' to cope with their physical needs, led to the baby being thrown out with the bathwater and an expectation that all 'special needs' children should be educated in mainstream regardless of its suitability for them. Pressure on mainstream funding increased and though it was eased somewhat under the 1997 -2010 Labour governments, subsequent tory austerity caused much of the support to be withdrawn.

I firmly believe that state education should be much better funded, but it really boils down to political choices. If one has voted for a government that slashes public spending it's inevitable that needy children will lose out and that parents with the means to do so will pay for the support they need.

Surely there needs to be a long term project the set up schools or departments in schools to help children with special needs. Does anyone know how such children are helped in other countries?

MayBee70

Surely there needs to be a long term project the set up schools or departments in schools to help children with special needs. Does anyone know how such children are helped in other countries?

I personally don't know but I bet my bottom dollar those countries will have a much better system than the chaos that has reigned in this country for decades.

MayBee70

Surely there needs to be a long term project the set up schools or departments in schools to help children with special needs. Does anyone know how such children are helped in other countries?

It's not as though those things don't already exist, MayBee. They do, but education has been underfunded for so long that they struggle to cope with the demands on them.

A lot of private schools have charitable status, they may well rent the buildings from whoever but any surplus is reinvested, the staff of course get paid wages. There are no “shareholders” dividing a profit, others are endowed by a benefactor relying on income invested elsewhere to help fund the education.

Whitewavemark2

ronib

Wwm2 what did Starmer say then?

He was asked this question in the first tv debate. Sunak will pay for private healthcare to save a relative’s life and Starmer won’t.
Outrageous.

Sigh

This is my last reply.

You are entirely missing the point.

What he is saying is that if he becomes prime minister, and managing the NHS queues it would be morally wrong for him to jump the queue. It is a philosophical position. You might not agree nor like it but it is what it is. He is the same about private education.

Frankly it is the only answer that any sensible person would make because with regard to A&E, end of life, cancer, heart and paediatrics the NHS is second to none and in some cases certain treatment is only available in the NHS.

He isn’t preventing you from using either nor anyone else for that matter.

I think this has now been flogged to death so I’m over and out with regard to this subject.

Thanks Whitewave - you put it so well

Interesting article that points out (amongst other things, which questions the basis on which calculations have been made)

www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/29/what-are-labours-plans-for-ending-tax-breaks-for-private-schools

"But, the IFS notes, it “should be remembered that pupil numbers in the state sector are expected to fall dramatically over the next decade and state schools might therefore welcome extra pupils moving from the private sector”.

Precisely Willow👏👏👏

Wyllow3

Interesting article that points out (amongst other things, which questions the basis on which calculations have been made)

www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/29/what-are-labours-plans-for-ending-tax-breaks-for-private-schools

"But, the IFS notes, it “should be remembered that pupil numbers in the state sector are expected to fall dramatically over the next decade and state schools might therefore welcome extra pupils moving from the private sector”.

I don't know where they get those figures from. The birth rate is falling but in 2020 it was at about the same level as 2003 (it rose between those dates). The children born in 2020 will be in school until 2038, so any fall in numbers will be tiny until then.

70% have charitable status, it means parents don't pay VAT on fees, can't claim the VAT back and can't make a profit, any surplus is ploughed back into the school.

What makes a independent school a ‘charity’ other than it’s a way to avoid paying VAT?

Typo ‘an’ not ‘a’

Many were endowed by charitable bequests.

Can you explain how this works GSM? I’m not familiar with ‘charitable bequests’.