Labour and the Tories have disenfranchised me

If somebody has a very low income and lives in a run-down area, it's not at all moronic to vote for a party which will raise taxes. If taxes are progressive, the people at the bottom won't pay that much, but if systems are working properly they stand to gain more than they are contributing. It's not moronic to want the best for oneself. The way people vote is influenced by it all the time. What would be moronic would be to vote for a party which would almost guarantee to make you poorer and your area more deprived.

Germanshepherdsmum

I have not seen a Labour supporter here or elsewhere questioning the manifesto. Are they afraid to highlight its flaws?

No.

PS. I missed your questioning of Conservative policies. Do you have a link?

I haven’t seen a critique of any of the manifestos on Gransnet, but happy to join in if you want to start one - not that there will be agreement on perceived flaws, because as you know from other threads, a number of us are happy to pay more taxes in return for improved public services, and we also know that none of the parties have fully costed, or fully explained the omissions and fudged areas of their manifestos. It only surprises me that anybody would expect them to have done so.

‘It’s not moronic to want the best for oneself’ - unless you have some money, in which case it’s selfish.

I am happy with Conservative policies. I have no questions. But the silence here about how Labour will fund its manifesto pledges is deafening.

Germanshepherdsmum

‘It’s not moronic to want the best for oneself’ - unless you have some money, in which case it’s selfish.

I am happy with Conservative policies. I have no questions. But the silence here about how Labour will fund its manifesto pledges is deafening.

As is the silence about how any of the other parties will fund theirs? I’m not sure why you think Labour supporters should worry more than anybody else - we know what we’re getting into, and I’m certainly less worried about that than the alternatives.

GSM I am happy with Labour policies. I have no questions.

Germanshepherdsmum

‘It’s not moronic to want the best for oneself’ - unless you have some money, in which case it’s selfish.

I am happy with Conservative policies. I have no questions. But the silence here about how Labour will fund its manifesto pledges is deafening.

😀😀😀

Germanshepherdsmum

‘It’s not moronic to want the best for oneself’ - unless you have some money, in which case it’s selfish.

I am happy with Conservative policies. I have no questions. But the silence here about how Labour will fund its manifesto pledges is deafening.

Wanting the best for oneself is always selfish, no matter where one is on the income scale. That's why people at the top vote to preserve their wealth. Who's blaming them? What is amazing is that people at the bottom vote for political parties which will make them poorer.

Lizzie, I am amazed. Just how, and when, do you think all those extra hospital and GP appointments, and the slashing of waiting lists, will happen (to name but three pledges)? Where will the financial, logistical and human resources come from, and when? I have said many times that at best (because it is not quantifiable) the £8.6bn by 27/28 from additional tax revenue from admitted sources is a drop in the ocean in several years’ time.

I don’t understand that. I’ve never come across anyone who doesn’t want the best for themselves, whether it’s a house or a chance to get some food they like at a food bank. Most people want things to be better for others too. Are the people who are determined to vote Conservative or Labour or Green or LibDem, doing it out of altruism, regardless of whether others might feel that isn’t the best. Most people are voting for what they think will be best for them.

growstuff

Germanshepherdsmum

‘It’s not moronic to want the best for oneself’ - unless you have some money, in which case it’s selfish.

I am happy with Conservative policies. I have no questions. But the silence here about how Labour will fund its manifesto pledges is deafening.

Wanting the best for oneself is always selfish, no matter where one is on the income scale. That's why people at the top vote to preserve their wealth. Who's blaming them? What is amazing is that people at the bottom vote for political parties which will make them poorer.

What is the difference between wanting the best for oneself
and wanting to better oneself , how can you claim one or the other is always selfish ?

As I see it both of the above are desirable traits in mankind, neither have to be or are exclusively at the expense of not caring about one’s fellow man.

Without either of these personalities who is to say we would still be living like our Neanderthal ancestors?

Casdon

Germanshepherdsmum

‘It’s not moronic to want the best for oneself’ - unless you have some money, in which case it’s selfish.

I am happy with Conservative policies. I have no questions. But the silence here about how Labour will fund its manifesto pledges is deafening.

As is the silence about how any of the other parties will fund theirs? I’m not sure why you think Labour supporters should worry more than anybody else - we know what we’re getting into, and I’m certainly less worried about that than the alternatives.

You’ll be pleased to know that Labour’s manifesto is apparently more fiscally conservative than the Tory manifesto, at least. Phew.
news.sky.com/story/sir-keir-starmers-manifesto-plans-rely-heavily-on-economy-growing-but-what-if-it-doesnt-13152640
I have seen somewhere today a % of the total government expenditure that the billions equate to, it’s very small, but I can’t remember where.

Mollygo

I don’t understand that. I’ve never come across anyone who doesn’t want the best for themselves, whether it’s a house or a chance to get some food they like at a food bank. Most people want things to be better for others too. Are the people who are determined to vote Conservative or Labour or Green or LibDem, doing it out of altruism, regardless of whether others might feel that isn’t the best. Most people are voting for what they think will be best for them.

Of course they do. There used to be a saying that voters vote with their wallets.

They still do. But, it doesn’t stop you wanting a better life for others as well.

I think peoples motivations vary considerably, so when you say people vote for themselves, it’s not about the impact on their own budgets or immediate families for everybody. Our choice isn’t between starving and having no home or not, it’s about whether we want people’s health, lives, homes, work etc. to be better. We all prioritise, it’s not an either/or.

How will Sunak's 17 billion in tax cuts affect those most in need?

How can we expect any improvement in vital services with that bill in mind, with an increasingly older population?

How is this any different from the 14 years of austerity that we have had? Will this convince voters the Conservative can or indeed wish to see a better NHS?

Page after page on here to criticise/question/undermine Labour Party Policy costings, struggling to deliver better services, then we come up against something which will only cut them back further?

www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/11/rishi-sunak-condemned-17bn-tax-giveaway-tory-manifesto

Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, said the manifesto could be characterised as “definite giveaways paid for by uncertain, unspecific and apparently victimless savings”.

"The Resolution Foundation thinktank said financing the tax cuts was conditional on cuts to social security including potentially up to 40% of the bill for payments for people with long-term ill health, as well as huge cuts to already-impoverished councils and unprotected government departments.

"Reeves announced calculations that the party said showed a potential £71bn deficit across the five-year parliament. The likely effect on interest rates could, Reeves said, see an average mortgage-holder pay £4,800 more over five years."

Tell me, Wyllow, how will Labour’s manifesto affect those most in need’?

GSM glad to hear you’re amazed. I am happy with Labour policies. I have no questions.

Bring on a Labour government

Tell me, GSM, how will the Conservative’s manifesto affect those most in need?

I neither know nor care.

I don’t vote for what I believe is best for me but on what i believe will be best for my country, especially for my deprived northern town. I expect to be accused of being a virtue signalling leftie naive do gooder. I do not care, I’ll wear it with pride

I was part of a local Labour group who met with Andy Burnham this week. A mixed age/gender/faith/race group - United with a desire to improve life for people in our town.

I’m confident Starmer and his front bench hope to keep to the manifesto. Unlike Johnson, who never had the oven ready plan to co-ordinate health and social care.

Germanshepherdsmum

Tell me, Wyllow, how will Labour’s manifesto affect those most in need’?

A government who actually do care.

Caring isn’t enough. What would they actually do?

Well for a start there’s a massive number of people needed to work in Great British Energy. 650000 that’s a lot of people. Fully costed?
I don’t know that a caring government is going to help anyone. An effective efficient one would.

And who is going to pay them? Quite apart from the costs of setting up and running a company? Pie in the sky.

Germanshepherdsmum

And who is going to pay them? Quite apart from the costs of setting up and running a company? Pie in the sky.

I neither know nor care.