Starmer's stubbornness

Cossy

Btw, Sarnia, the state system isn’t always “second-best” many many children so well.

Notwithstanding this, why do you it’s ok for most of us to “put up with second-best” for our own children and grand-chikdren?

Those SEND children without EHCP's who find themselves back in mainstream will be getting a second best education compared to the specialist teachers and environment they will be removed from should this 20% VAT increase be put in place. This is because their mainstream provision could not meet the needs set down on that child's EHCP so they were deemed to need a special school, many of which are private. The majority of children will be able to access a state school education which is not second class for those fortunate enough to not have special needs. However, it is second-best for the SEND children it has already failed.

Of course not. Universities offer scholarships/ bursaries etc.

sarnia your post is such a good example as to why we need to put so much more money into educating the 93% rather than the 7%.

Germanshepherdsmum

Obviously you don’t know how much assistance independent schools give to state schools children whose parents can’t afford fees Glorianny. Unfortunately you don’t understand the legal meaning of charitable status. I have already posted a link. Independent schools do not pretend to be charities. If registered with the Charity Commission they are charities.

I know that the charitable status of most schools is only historical and certainly doesn't apply now. That in fact the original purpose of many schools established to educate the children of the poor has been subverted. I know how the system operates which uses bursaries and grants to fund children whose parents have some financial liquidity problem, through divorce or other family crisis, and who the school chooses to keep.
This is an interesting article about the history of their charitable status www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/the-charitable-status-of-elite-schools-the-origins-of-a-national-scandal
You are a legal expert GSM the law says a charity is

The Charities Act says that a ‘charity’ is an institution which is established for charitable purposes only (see part 2 of this guide) and
is subject to the control of the High Court’s charity law jurisdiction (see part 5 of this guide)

Is the whole purpose of a private school Charitable?

You simply don’t understand the legal meaning of ‘charitable purposes’ Glorianny. Not all independent schools, by any means, were formed to educate the children of the poor. New independent schools are still opening.

Iam64

Private schools are not charities, they’re businesses. There’s a particularly clear divide here between those of us who support Labour’s proposals and those who don’t
To dismiss it a as the politics of envy says a lot about those who see private schools as sacrosanct and state schools as awful

I can’t agree with this Iam.
Take my family as an example; all three of my children attended our local state primary school from age 5 - 11. Then my two boys left primary and went to an independent senior school that my husband happened to teach in. They went there from age 11 - 18. The fees were reduced, because their father was a teacher there. Our daughter went to a different independent school at 11 because her father’s school didn’t take girls. When she was 16 she transferred to the school where her father taught, by then he was deputy head. She stayed there until she was 18.
My husband started his career in teaching at a state ex grammar school and then taught in the independent school until he retired.
I taught in state schools for the whole of my teaching career.
And so our family has worked and been taught in both the state and independent sectors, and I don’t think our family is exceptional. Many families straddle both sectors, both in teaching and in educating.
It’s too black and white to think of the two sectors as being completely separate and never the twain shall meet.

maddyone,your family experience is of course just that. I recognise both of you taught for many years, very valuable contribution.
I don’t see my post as saying never the Twain shall meet. More that this area is one that divides posters into largely for or against Labour’s proposal. As is clear, I support it

I fear that the policy will blight vulnerable pupils who are thrown into the deep end of the state sector with insufficient support. Just to satisfy those party members and supporters who want to punish the parents who send their children to an independent school, and consequently their children.

Don’t worry, that magic tree will be shaken and all will be well.

So if private schools really want to maintain their charitable status perhaps they should offer to make a percentage of their pupils those who need special help. The school would fund all the child's needs including assessment and the EHCP and educate them free of charge. Thus giving children who really need it all the necessary help, and relieving the state sector of some responsibility.

Glorianny hear, hear👏👏👏

That truly would be an act of charity on the part of private schools!

I have already said that independent schools do much good in the state sector and in taking in children whose parents cannot afford fees - but it seems to fall on deaf ears. Comments are being made by posters who have no knowledge of what independent schools do yet hate their very existence. How very typical of old Labour views - what has really changed?

Comments are being made by posters who have no knowledge of what independent schools do yet hate their very existence.
You're right Germanshepherdsmum. I'm sure it's no secret that I was a Head at a private school, and have only recently retired from teaching in private schools. DH is also a Busar and Compliance Inspector for private schools. I think we know our stuff inside out!
In my school, I gave away several free places to children whose parents could not afford the fees. These were not government assisted places, the money came from my own pocket. My hardworking staff also received a discount on school fees. Our own 3 children attended other private schools in the area and we paid full fees for each of them when they could have been educated at no cost. We paid for them in order to free up those free places for poorer children. So charity, yes!

*Bursar not Busar

Genuinely good to hear, but it's a postcode lottery. A government has to look at the situation as a whole.

Germanshepherdemum & Joseann
however much we explain I am afraid it will continue to be ignored 🤦‍♀️

You are so right.

How magnanimous to give out free places to the deserving poor…

Is that not charity?

Just to put this into perspective: Eton College receives 80% business rate relief, doesn't pay any Corporation Tax, receives Gift Aid on all "donations" (which adds up to a pretty penny) and can claw back any VAT it pays on certain goods and services.

The tax payer is effectively subsidising each pupil at the school to the tune of around £10,000 a year. We subsidised Boris Johnson's education amongst other worthy boys.

Thanks flappergirl. Truly shocking!

Germanshepherdsmum

I have already said that independent schools do much good in the state sector and in taking in children whose parents cannot afford fees - but it seems to fall on deaf ears. Comments are being made by posters who have no knowledge of what independent schools do yet hate their very existence. How very typical of old Labour views - what has really changed?

This is purely propaganda. The amount of good done has absolutely no proportion to the amount claimed as a charity. It isn't charity to use profits from a business to fund a few things. Many businesses make charitable donations and they can be tax deductable. They do not give the business charitable status or exempt it from taxes on other things.

I have no objection to anyone paying for the education of their children. I simply don't see why the tax payer should fund it.

From the article I linked to earlier
on 2,707 properties classified as private schools there would be a business rates bill of around £1.16bn over the next five years. Extrapolating from the data received from councils, it forecast that £634m would be paid, with £522m saved through the schools’ charitable status.’ Among the beneficiaries are Eton, whose bill for business rates would have been in excess of £4m, but is, in fact, only £821,000
This is money which would go directly to local councils who could use it to properly fund state education.

Have your private schools but stop pretending they are charitable organisations and make them pay their way like any other commercial business.
One or two children given bursaries does not constitute a charity.

Have your private schools but stop pretending they are charitable organisations and make them pay their way like any other commercial business. One or two children given bursaries does not constitute a charity

Hear, hear Glorianny!

Indeed Glorianny. In fact the very few and carefully selected pupils who receive bursaries at Eton for example are mere window dressing.

Are those on Gransnet, or their adult children, truly happy to subsidise every student at Eton? Because that in a nutshell is a fact.

I have no problem with the status quo - but then I don’t subscribe to the politics of envy. It’s easy to see who does on here.