What is it that attracts racists, Islamaphobes, homophobes and general bigots to Nigel Farage?

I think its good to have some sort of agreement on values, most countries have them, some are similar to ours, some are very different, so for example I think Americas commitment to freedom of speech is different to ours even though we would argue we have freedom of speech. Many countries sadly dont have the values of democracy, individual liberty, etc.

Primrose53

Cossy

Oreo

Dismissing voters views often leads to bad outcomes.France could now end up with Le Pen in control.

I’m not sure we are dismissing voters views, rather questioning them, worried about them and refuting them.

I’ve seen and heard more than enough about Reform’s “rallies”.

They sound and feel “Trumpish@, bordering on “cultish” and frankly I find it scary!

Nobody can ever match Corbyn as the most dangerous man in British politics.

And it’s very apt that Glasto is on this weekend when just a very few years ago, crowds of teenagers and champagne socialists were there chanting “ooh Jeremy Corbyn”. There he was in his Stalin cap lapping it all up and imagining himself in No 10.
He thought it was guaranteed just as many pollsters did.
Look how that turned out! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I think Galloway is coming a close second to Corbyn, and he's already an MP.

Excellent post foxie48.

I agree with everything you've written.

Thing is, you've given a well thought-out comment - without insulting those that intend to vote for Reform.

I don't think you can persuade people to listen to you by insulting their morals or intelligence. And that's what's been happening on this thread.

If someone is going to change their mind, they need to do it through their own agency, and rational posts like yours are what is needed.

Thanks for an excellent contribution to the debate.

I believe that we are living in dangerous times. Economic instability coupled with (as you point out) politicians giving comparatively simple solutions to complex problems which include inevitably sourcing a scapegoat cannot end well, as history has proved.

But it isn't only Reform that are doing it. Sunak has another target group in his sights if all else fails - those who are under the banner of the sick-note culture.

In some respects, this makes him more dangerous. Because he is well educated and civilised in his manner, he is more acceptable, more believable.

Yep, nothing wrong with having an agreement on values.
On a slightly different topic I read the other day that the 18 to 24 year olds were the most politically active.Then I found that meant rants on SM and attending marches and rallies but not actual voting where the turnout is pathetically poor.What a shame they don’t bother.

Dickens
I think that Urmstongran has left the forum for a while.

Sunak is far more right wing than people realise.

Excellent post Foxie, but so many people want simple answers to complex problems. They want someone who says 'All we need to do is.......' without bothering to ask the questions like 'how'.

It is like the way people come and post on GN when they are looking for a simple way out of a complex situation they are in, because they do not like the only practical solutions available. Then when we can't provide it we never hear from them again.

There are a lot of people like that around and they are the kind of people who vote Reform.

All political parties offer that in some sense though, the idea that Starmer is the person to solve the complex issues facing the NHS is incredibly naive. Why would he be, no one else has achieved that. I say that as a labour voter.

Does anybody believe that Starmer will be able to solve the complex issues facing the NHS though Galaxy? I’ve never seen anybody on here saying so, if they do. I think a lot of us believe the NHS is safer in Labour’s hands, and that there will be improvements in waiting lists and staffing levels, but that’s not quite the same as it all being wonderful under Labour. To quote my mum, we aren’t as green as we’re cabbage looking.

Galaxy

All political parties offer that in some sense though, the idea that Starmer is the person to solve the complex issues facing the NHS is incredibly naive. Why would he be, no one else has achieved that. I say that as a labour voter.

I say that as a Labour voter too, there are some things such as the NHS, social care, mental health initiatives, immigration both legal and illegal ,that are just so big and complex that successive governments haven’t sorted them as yet.

Having given this plenty of thought, I’ve come to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, it’s just my personal view, that people are turning to Reform NOT because they are right leaning nazi’s but because the govt currently has made us all lose hope and it’s easy to be persuaded by a good speaker, with a grin, who claims to know how we all feel, how he’s going to make it all alright and then with a wink and a grin, tell us all he’s just an “average” bloke, who likes a pint and a fag. It’s all a nice pipe dream.

Or a reoccurring nightmare 😂😂

Night night

Sometimes there are small things that can make a big difference, though. Eg doing something about bed blocking. When I worked for the NHS older patients would chat to others when waiting for their appointments. Something that I encouraged but the doctors weren’t happy with. I then read of a surgery somewhere that offered coffee mornings for its elderly patients and, lo and behold the number of patients requiring appointments dropped. I’m not implying that they deliberately made appointments as something to do but their health improved by getting out and meeting people. Little things can make a big difference. I think that Labour have been listening to people about lots of things for quite a long time now and it will form the basis of a new approach to lots of things.

Galaxy

All political parties offer that in some sense though, the idea that Starmer is the person to solve the complex issues facing the NHS is incredibly naive. Why would he be, no one else has achieved that. I say that as a labour voter.

I think Labour came closer to 'solving' the NHS 1997-2010 than governments before and after them.

Though, of course, in 2024 it has more to solve and completely different 'actors' with which to solve it.

Good post foxie48. I would substitute dishonest answers for simple ones.

Where is the joined up thinking?

You only have to look at ONS population statistics to see that our birth and death rates are about same rate - around 600,000 births a year and 600,000 deaths a year. We have record numbers of working age people 50-66 unable to work through long-term health issues. To grow our economy we need either the existing workforce to be more productive or more workers. Where are they to come from? The immigation salary list is a list of occupations where employers face a shortage of suitable labour and where the government judge that migration is a sensible response to that shortage. As well as the care sector we have a serious shortage of people to work in the construction industry. Much is made of people arriving on small boats being young men. Young men. They aren’t going to need a school place and its unlikely they will need much in the way of healthcare. What they need is work. Young men are exactly what is needed in the construction industry. Rather than leave them languishing on barges and disused RAF bases, get their applications processed and into work, building the houses we need.

Or renovating them … Action on Empty Houses have found that in England alone there are 700,000 empty residential properties. Over 250,000 of those are long-term empty. Unless there is a compelling and acceptable reason for these homes being empty, they should be brought back into use.

We have 1100 conurbations: core cities, other cites, large, medium and small towns. Paraphrasing what FranP said upthread, there is plenty of room to absorb more people around the country, barely making a dent, people who could work and contribute to the economy and communities.

I’ve just seen that that black journalist Femi Oluwole who had a ticket and press pass was barred from entering (and therefore reporting) on the Reform rally in Birmingham. No reason given. Heavies just escorted him from the building.

x.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1807507047052956014

I’ve just seen that that black journalist Femi Oluwole who had a ticket and press pass was barred from entering (and therefore reporting) on the Reform rally in Birmingham. No reason given. Heavies just escorted him from the building.

Femi will be very well known to Reform leaders. I don't think they like his values...

The issue of record numbers not working is not one to be ignored, it's an issue that needs to be looked into as those peoples lives will be ruined. The over 50's were the first to fall into this category following covid but it is now other age groups as well. It is a terrible idea to write people off in that way.

Oops, my post at 22.07 has landed on the wrong thread

Please ignore.

MaizieD

^I’ve just seen that that black journalist Femi Oluwole who had a ticket and press pass was barred from entering (and therefore reporting) on the Reform rally in Birmingham. No reason given. Heavies just escorted him from the building.^

Femi will be very well known to Reform leaders. I don't think they like his values...

So much for three of the British values: Democracy, Mutual Respect & Tolerance and Individual Liberty.

Free speech but only if you agree with Farage. And so it begins. Zia Yusuf should be ashamed.

Oreo

Dickens
I think that Urmstongran has left the forum for a while.

Thanks Oreo.

I’m unclear why British values in Reforms terms should include getting ride of human rights.

Seems a total contradiction in terms to me.

This is what they will get ride of

I assume that people understand that HR are for everyone not just asylum seekers?

It's interesting that Farage will only engage with media that don't challenge him and he stops people who might not report favourably on attending his rallies. This is typical of authoritarian leaders and we see it happening in so many countries. I've heard the BBC challenge the manifestos of every party but it's only Reform that's saying it's biased.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I think the idea of "British values" is a complete myth, if you asked a 100 people to write down a list I think you'd find a lot of difference and if you asked the same of a group of people from different countries you'd probably get the same level of agreement/disagreement. The only time I see our British values being discussed is in relation to immigration. It's just another way of "othering" people ie they don't share our values, they're not like us, they don't integrate into our society, etc etc. What we should be recognising is that these are humans like us with the same needs for shelter, food and safety, that they want the same for their children ie a future and they are doing what man has done for the whole of our existence, ie migrating to have a better future. That said, of course we should have sensible immigration laws with some control but we don't need to de-humanise people as part of that process. We should also stop pretending that they are changing our society in a negative way, they enrich our society both culturally and economically if they are given a chance. I heard a third generation Pakistani man being interviewed in Leeds, he's never been to Pakistan, he doesn't speak Urdu fluently, he had a broad Leeds accent and despite that he says he's still seen as as an immigrant. He's a British citizen, paying his taxes, however, if he were white and his grandparents had come from Ireland he'd be seen as British. It is all about colour.

As usual he is playing the race card too

What does that mean please?