James Timpson, newly elected prisons minister says only one third of prisoners should definitely be in prison.

madeleine45

Prison was meant to have two parts to it. It was a punishment to have your life restricted and being made to follow rules etc, so hopefully you both learnt that what you had done was unacceptable and came to understand why and how. It was also meant to provide learning and assistance in encouraging people to understand how they came to be in prison and taught them new skills and trades so that they would be unlikely to return to prison. If you just punish and give no help in reforming someone of course you will have a revolving door situation. There are often many people who through things like moving a lot of times, or being ill or not being recognised as dyslexic etc, who have ended up in prison for things like not understanding letters or bills and not dealing with something within a set time. This is now made worse as we are now making a divided country. Those who have a phone and can use it to make connections and seek help if they need it. Those who cannot afford a phone, are second class citizens these days. If you want a doctors appointment you have to ring up at 8am. No phone means no appointment etc. As long as you think it is right to imprison someone and throw away the key and teach them nothing, dont help them to learn new skills or understanding of how they ended up in prison, you will never make any improvements. People with money have always been able to use accountants to make the best of their money in a legal way. You cannot even get an accountant of any sort to help you unless you have quite a sizeable amount of money. So we do need to really make a clear division between dangerous and cruel behaviour that warrants imprisonment and a long hard look at whether they are safe to release and the people who if you trace their actions often have been forced into difficult situations and not had anywhere to get any help.

Are you seriously suggesting there are people out there who don’t have a mobile phone?

Walk around any town centre and just about everybody is holding a phone regardless of how well dressed or poorly dressed they are.Kids have them, Big Issue Sellers have them, pensioners have them, everybody has them. A lot of people have them instead of a landline.

You can buy a simcard for £2.60 and a new phone for less than £20.

I can’t even pretend to be an expert in any way at all about this subject, but my gut feeling is that probably too many women are put in prison. I’m sure women would be more responsive to community service and care in the community than men would be. Also the crimes women commit are more often than not, none violent. I think we would do well to have many fewer women in prison.
With regard to men, I think violent men should be in prison longer, not shorter, but other crimes that are not violent, maybe demand of a different kind of punishment.

Just don’t do what we do. They are let out on bonds, reoffend and then they are let out again. They reoffend ( and I’m talking about violent crime, not shoplifting etc), they tell them off and out they come again. Over and over again. It is a very real problem here. The police are tearing their hair out,they know the criminals well and they know the magistrates will let them off yet again. So many home invasions, so many violent street offences but these magistrates think the poor things will be better off in the community. No one gives a damn about the victims who are often totally traumatised and never the same again.

No punishment and no deterrent for prisoners, we've enough physopaths on the streets as it is. Why is it always men that cause violent crime, all presumably raised by women, something badly wrong. Was there a good role model man in their life I wonder. I feel society is broken and and someone has to have the courage to say why. Children ideally need good role models and parents.

It will be a popular policy until a prisoner released early commits a serious crime, prison will be seen as less of a deterrent.
As for women in prison, the courts bend over backwards to avoid sending women to prison because the whole family breaks up and children go into care. Violent and mentally ill individuals have to be detained, most of the rest are prolific reoffenders who have been given many chances to reform.

Your experience was obviously dreadful Primrose. Your assumption that ‘dogooders’ have no similar experiences to influence their views on criminal justice is not always so.
Those posters who have come into contact with the type of individual you describe may well feel as you did, that they’ve seen evil.

Wanting improved CJS isn’t bending over backwards for offenders and ignoring victims as some suggest. It’s about improvements that lead to less recidivism, more support for victims of crime. The Victim Support Schemes came from the work of activists.

Apologies by the way - my title should of course have said Timpson was appointed

Violent crime against other people should always have a prison sentence, of course, and repeat offenders, but I have long thought that there are better punishments for some crimes rather then overcrowding our prisons. Fraud, motoring offences, small theft, some drug offences. We need more community service and much higher fines.

I agree henetha and it’s possible to limit the freedom of offenders without locking them up. Good alternatives won’t be cheap but the financial and personal cost of prisons are huge

Atm there is literally no option to releasing some prisoners early, since they are full in a couple of weeks, and there has to be room for the dangerous and violent offenders.

Part of "austerity" has been to take away the options Iam and henetha imo rightly discuss.

Its also clear that from what primrose said, that at least some victims are not being given the support they need.

Wyllow3

Atm there is literally no option to releasing some prisoners early, since they are full in a couple of weeks, and there has to be room for the dangerous and violent offenders.

Part of "austerity" has been to take away the options Iam and henetha imo rightly discuss.

Its also clear that from what primrose said, that at least some victims are not being given the support they need.

Thank you Wyllow3

In my opinion victims should ALWAYS take priority over offenders.

I'm so sorry for what you went through and appalled at the level of support offered. I don't know enough about the Victims Support system.

You’re experience was horrific Primrose
I don’t know anyone who would disagree with you about putting victims first

We should take account of many different experiences of crime and its consequences- that of a victim of crime and their family, the perpetrator (who may have a complex history), someone wrongly accused, professionals in the police, the law, the judiciary, the prison service, the probation service, and lay people suddenly called for jury service.

It is not a simple matter of shouting "lock them up and throw away the key"

Eh up varian, don’t be introducing complex solutions for complex problems
(Trying to be ironic in the face of hang and flog approaches)

The new government has said that no violent criminal will be released early.

I posted this on another thread, ths OP of which which blames Rishi Sunak entirely for the state of the prisons and the justice system now.

New Labour invented thousands more new offences and jailed more people than any other European country.

What were these 3,600 new offences and why do we send more people to prison than other European countries?

Callistemon213
I don’t know the answer, but maybe Starmer will address that as part of the plan.

Looked up some stats. 18% of the prison population are on remand awaiting trial.

"why do we send more people to prison than other European countries?"

Good question. Take the Netherlands, for example (lowest). Are people better behaved, or are attitudes to custodial sentences different by our UK citizens/judicial system.

The Netherlands have just 30 prisoners in total on whole life sentences. Its a real ???

Better behaved I reckon. Dutch obedience and propriety.

Because there are far more community based sentences in the Netherlands. Timpson talks about this, and the better outcomes than here, in the video I linked to earlier.

The Netherlands and Scandinavian countries have a less punitive, more restorative approach to criminal justice than the UK.
Despite evidence that it’s more effective, our approach has been to lock far more offenders up. The privatisation and destruction of the Probation service and other supportive public services had contributed to our problems.
The UK has a long tradition of excessive use of alcohol and anti social behaviour. Our culture could be improved by less acceptance of this.

The Netherlands has a far more relaxed attitude towards drugs.

I'm not at all sure that is a good thing.

Callistemon213

I posted this on another thread, ths OP of which which blames Rishi Sunak entirely for the state of the prisons and the justice system now.

New Labour invented thousands more new offences and jailed more people than any other European country.

What were these 3,600 new offences and why do we send more people to prison than other European countries?

We catch more?🙃
I agree that we do need more modern prisons built and also send fewer there, so many prisoners have mental health problems or have been let down by parents/ family or have been brought up in care.Many are illiterate.They leave prison with nowhere to go in some cases, no money and no hope.
We need a joined up system of rehabilitation and aftercare for many young men and support, otherwise they’ll be straight back inside.
The old Victorian prisons need pulling down.

I think well enforced and useful community work orders are a good solution but with the proviso that if you fail to attend you go to prison.
Fines and reparation for victims if not paid should be attached to benefits or wages.
If people know that they will be forced to pay for the damage they cause to people or property it may make them think twice.
Offenders need to be held accountable in more appropriate ways with prison for violent and serious crimes.

I believe the more relaxed approach was effective with the emphasis on treatment etc.
It seems less popular now as with other countries, there are more problems with big dealers/county lines etc
Drugs - what to do?