James Timpson, newly elected prisons minister says only one third of prisoners should definitely be in prison.

Iam64

I believe the more relaxed approach was effective with the emphasis on treatment etc.
It seems less popular now as with other countries, there are more problems with big dealers/county lines etc
Drugs - what to do?

The unpopular solution is to legalise them, thereby cutting out the criminal element.

Not something I am in favour of, but as soon as one gang master is taken out there are many waiting to step into their place.

Massive investment is needed in education (many prisoners can barely read), mental health services (the rate of mental illness amongst prisoners is very high), drug dealing prevention (the bulk of prisoners are addicted or become so in prison), drug rehabilitation, early years support to struggling parents, youth services, decent housing etc. etc.

Prison populations rise when society is failing its most vulnerable members and failing to provide even the most basic services.

Investment in preventive services is a brave step for governments to take as results are slow in appearing and the electorate want quick fixes.

There always will be a small number of people who absolutely must be detained in prison, but it helps none of us for there to be vast numbers of prisoners detained when other alternatives would serve better to steer them away from offending and keep them away from the drug infested prisons.

Building new prisons is not the answer - the capital expenditure could be better spent on all those services outlined above; and, even when a new prison is built, it has to be staffed, and prison staffing is already a problem.

There are no simple answers; but good solutions need investment and commitment. Every one of us would benefit from this.

This will all take time - lots of it. Investment in proper services takes time to show results, and in the interim the existing prisons need to be managed better while lower demand filters through. We are talking decades - but unless this process is started now things will get no better - ever.

Stating the bleeding obvious here but if there were more police about and they kept interrupting these drug dealers it it might go a way to help.
I could take you to just one estate in Southend where you could buy your drug of choice most days of the week.
There was a car valeting business practically opposite Southend police station: no action.
You can walk from the station to Priority park where a lot of action takes place.
I see county line scroats every day.
My daughter phoned the police from outside my granddaughters school to tell them that dealers were there. No action despite the fact you could walk to the station.
How could a taxi driver near me go out every night in lockdown despite the fact that nowhere was open and never pulled over 🤷‍♀️ I know the answer.
And on it goes.

Stating the bleeding obvious here but if there were more police about and they kept interrupting these drug dealers it it might go a way to help.
So bleeding obvious it is always overlooked as a solution.

There was an ice cream van visiting a village near here where the nice middle class children could buy a little extra with their cornets. Not to mention the butcher's shop which had freezers full of the hard stuff in the back.
It's a waste of time mentioning the pubs.

Drugs are traded in prisons all the time and that is where some people begin their addiction. Everyone knows it is happening.: the prisoners, the staff, the pribation service.

How can this happen openly under their noses? ... complicit/bribed staff? ... too few staff? ... lack of care? I do not know, but it is a fact.

To those saying (entirely reasonably) we should stop the drug dealers in our society, please bear in mind that if it is apparently impossible to do that in the closed community of prison, how the hell us it going to be achieved on the outside?

🤔
I think it starts way before anyone is sent to prison.

Indeed - see my previous post outlining where it all starts and the long term preventive services that need to be started to improve things.

This short term fix idea needs ditching.

In the meantime, it would be great if the prison service would stop ignoring what is happening under their noses.

Some of you may not like it, but this ex Governer talks sense

Alex Phillips TEARS Into The Prison System | “Take Them To The Airport, NOT Prison!”
7,672 views · 3 hours agoLONDON
...more

TalkTV
966K

What does that mean Freya? Is it aimed at non British people accused of crime?
During the radio4 pm discussion this afternoon, it was suggested we could identify and deport prisoners to their country of origin. The response was that there are many British prisoners abroad who could be sent back in exchange.

I’m concerned to find workable, legal , long term solutions to this problem,

Iam64

What does that mean Freya? Is it aimed at non British people accused of crime?
During the radio4 pm discussion this afternoon, it was suggested we could identify and deport prisoners to their country of origin. The response was that there are many British prisoners abroad who could be sent back in exchange.

I’m concerned to find workable, legal , long term solutions to this problem,

No if you watch it, it's about the problem in general, with a small part about foreign prisoners, I'm also aware of British criminals being incarcerated abroad. Many are sent back, especially from Spain and Australia. Any way what overseas countries do about UK prisoners is for them to decide. Our problems are for our Gov to sort out.

Thank you for your very interesting contributions, Iam64.
It is clear that the agencies operating outside prison, aiming to reduce offence, have been underfunded.

I agree that many prisoners would be better supported (horrible expression!) in the community. But WHAT community? And HOW? With cuts to public spending and no money to make improvements to those we already have, this won’t work, just like ‘care in the community’s for mental health patients hasn’t. I’m concerned about violent offenders being released with only part of their sentence served. The probation service is on its knees and has been for years, so that’s not much use either. Let’s face it. much if this is down to a massive rise in population we weren’t prepared for. We’ve never been much good at looking after the people of this country and it seems we’re getting worse at it.

What you say is correct and it is a worldwide problem. We are not supposed to say it,though,in the so called ‘democracies.’

It's worrying to see that prisoners will be getting released early because of overcrowding in the prison system/and apparently it was said many of them should not be in prison anyway. I was concerned to see an ex prisoner on the news recently released early to make room for newer prisoners going in. He was not happy on his release saying he was let out with no place to go to and left to be on the street and very little money. His answer to his problem was he would commit some sort of crime and get himself back in prison seems a sad way to live. All these schemes must be better thought out and more community support.

Germanshepherdsmum

Which two thirds should not be in prison? I have great respect for James Timpson but on the face of it this sounds worrying.

This made me think of a policeman I heard on the radio who said that a handful of burglars were responsible for all the break-ins in his area. I'd really rather that these few people were locked up, though I know that the police rarely even investigate the average household burglaries. The aggravation that these "minor" crimes cause is out of all proportion to the burglars' haul.
I would agree though that women with children who have committed minor offences need not be locked up in most cases.

Iam64

What does that mean Freya? Is it aimed at non British people accused of crime?
During the radio4 pm discussion this afternoon, it was suggested we could identify and deport prisoners to their country of origin. The response was that there are many British prisoners abroad who could be sent back in exchange.

I’m concerned to find workable, legal , long term solutions to this problem,

It is in theory possible to deport Foreign national offenders

lordslibrary.parliament.uk/foreign-national-offenders-in-uk-prisons-powers-to-deport/#:~:text=Government%20guidance%20states%20its%20policy,of%20aggregate%20or%20consecutive%20sentences)

But in practice when you read the small print - the country receiving has to agree.

Prisoner swaps as you say Iam would not reduce prisoner numbers.

Oreo: yes more prison places. Had a facetious thought. As the new PM is going to slap VAT on school fees, many boarding establishments will close. They are invariably in remote grounds. Use them as overflow prisons - children often refer to their residential schools as "prisons"!!! So why not?

In my first year doing Social Policy at university I remember being shocked to learn the bulk of women in prison were for monetary offences the majority being single mothers for non payment of a TV licence. Most women are either in for being poor or for mental health - neither of which are improved by a prison sentence.

The vast number of people with mental health problems kept in prison is really unacceptable. It might sound old fashioned, but they really should be institutionalised in appropriate places if dangerous and not be part of prison sentencing.

They have often turned to drugs for relief from mental torture and carry on their drug habit inside. And as for care in the community….🙄

Prison may not be the best or appropriate place for some offenders but doesn't it help to keep the rest of us safer? Until there is adequate provision for those with mental health problems and a fully staffed and experienced probation service what else can be done? I for one do not relish the thought of thousands of offenders being released without the right sort of accommodation and support.

The Howard League for Penal Reform are also saying we should not send so many people to prison - and especially, but not only, we should not send mothers of young children on 'short ' sentences, which means trauma for the children - they should not be punished in a way which may stay with them life long. We need a better system which actually reduces re-offending and is less Dickensian. There are people who should be in prison - lets find other ways to deal with those who have offended but for whom there are better ways to get them back to being law abiding. Prison damages many people - let us learn from other countries with better more humane systems - which work.

The previous government allowed the prison system to get to this dreadful place and ran down the probation service too. The current government have to start where they actually are now - and take whatever decisions are best in the short to medium term, while planning for a better future.

hollysteers

^ The vast number of people with mental health problems kept in prison is really unacceptable^

That’s so true, but the increasing number of people with mental health problems outside prisons are also without provision.
In addition, last week at gym I was talking to a mental health nurse who tells me that they are moving all female mental health services 40 miles away. This means that several mothers I know, will have less access to their children because it’s a complicated journey.
That’s before they need additional space for those in prison.

When the large old mental hospitals closed down and patients moved to care in the community the places where many mentally ill people could go to receive care and treatment disappeared as well. These old hospitals provided somewhere to live and be supported, asylum from
a difficult world. The aim was to give patients a better life but they now fill prisons and have nowhere to go to be helped. The same was true for dementia care which now falls to families to provide or finance care. Unintended consequences.

Many prisoners are illiterate, often dyslexic and haven't been supported at school. We need to look at supporting people to live in society and be less quick to write them off and send them to jail.

For starters, I would deport any prisoners who are not British back to their country of origin.