School Bombed in Gaza

What did it say?

I just wanted to say that the October attacks by Hamas in Israel didn't just come out of nothing.

The historical build up of occupation and settling in Gaza by some Israeli's since 1967 is relevant as to the build up of Hamas in Gaza. We cant - imo - just start the discussion clock on October 2023.

Peace efforts: this gives a summary of current ceasefire negotiations.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gex1rl6q5o

Then Palestine’s murders of the Israeli Olympic team Munich
1972 was justified ?

Can we start with the pogroms , or the holocaust, we can go back further ?

If we have to start somewhere, it's indeed the end of WW2, and the setting up of an Israeli State but not giving the Palestinians any State or indeed status.

Asking for trouble from the start when different groups all claimed the lands were "theirs"

If you look at a map of the area and see the tiny strip that is Gaza, isolated from the West Bank....

add in the pre-existing conflict between different groups in the area, none of this is a surprise - its a devastating historical tragedy.

I have always supported a homeland for Jewish peoples, but that doesnt mean I support everything some Israelis have done unequivocally.

I started seeing it as problematic in 1967 but had such hopes in the 1990's that peace initiatives would prosper.

Migration only works when the populations integrate, if they remain as two or more more separate cultures, there is going to be conflict at some stage, we see this in many countries including Israel.
Israel is meant to be a secular state, it hasnt worked out that way

Who migrated, in this case?

You are not saying that the indigenous Muslim Palestianian population should have 'integrated' to the Jewish settlers? Or that Jewish settlers should have become Muslims?

Before the establishment of the state of Israel people of Jewish, Arab, and Christian origin lived alongside each there under the British Protectorate established 1922.

You could say they were all "indigenous" except because of a promise made by Balfour in 1917 numbers of Jewish settlers arrived after 1922 and there were tensions between different groups under British rule

www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine

“In 1917, in order to win Jewish support for Britain'sFirst World War effort,the British Balfour Declaration promised the establishment of a Jewish national home in Ottoman-controlled Palestine.

*However, the British had also promised Arab nationalists that a united Arab country, covering most of the Arab Middle East, would result if the Ottoman Turks were defeated.
When the fighting ended in 1918, with the Ottoman Empire defeated on every front, neither promise was delivered*

I read all these posts most carefully.
I’ve read about the history, but that doesn’t help with the present situation.
I am not happy with what is going on on Gaza any more than others.

However,
I haven’t seen anyone post a viable solution to the problem and no one seems to have any idea what Hamas would do if Israel declared the ceasefire that people are calling for.

Indeed Mollygo.
What I think Hamas wouldn’t do, is release all the hostages. Probably they would release some hostages, but not all. I realise this is just my opinion, but that’s what I think. Without the release of all the hostages (dead or alive) I think it unlikely that Israel will negotiate. That’s why I’m worried about all out war in the region.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gex1rl6q5o
gives

Current peace talks - reading up in my very limited way

hard to know what either side want beyond a ceasefire and a hostage/prisoner exchange. Talks are going on atm and Hamas are involved in the talks.

What might work .....as to who reconstructs Gaza, how it would be run, whether further Israeli settlements in Gaza would be precluded, whether the West Bank Settlers will carry on, whether Netanyahu really wants a settlement, what Hamas is prepared to compromise on ..... how much other countries will give as aid or even peacekeeping.

Just hope some of the negotiators have practical ideas.

“What might work .....as to who reconstructs Gaza, how it would be run, whether further Israeli settlements in Gaza would be precluded, whether the West Bank Settlers will carry on, whether Netanyahu really wants a settlement, what Hamas is prepared to compromise on ..... how much other countries will give as aid or even peacekeeping.”

Hamas want Israel to leave Gaza leaving Hamas in control.
I will be extremely surprised if Israel agree to that, as to who else is going to police Gaza, nobody is going to touch that with a barge pole, it’s a poisoned chalice, getting between Hamas and Israel will be a nightmare

Yes a very difficult ask of the international community

The option of any regime in Israel staying and '"policing" Gaza would be a de facto military occupation of the region. Isn't it likely that would increase tensions in Gaza not decrease in order to re build. How would Jordan and Egypt react? What do ordinary Palestinians want?

How many Israeli people want to see their sons and daughters in the IDF in large numbers permanently? What about security on other borders?

I wonder about an International Peace Keeping Force from the UN, but I don’t think either side would accept.

maddyone that is my intense hope.

Anniebach

Then Palestine’s murders of the Israeli Olympic team Munich
1972 was justified ?

Can we start with the pogroms , or the holocaust, we can go back further ?

Murdering anyone, anywhere, for any reason is NOT acceptable, imo.

I really don't think that Gaza can come back from this, has been flattened and too many people have been slaughtered. Within the next few years any Palestinians left standing will be forced to live in a refugee camp within their own land surrounded by barbed wire and the rest of it will militarised by the IDF and in time inhabited by Israelis, is a land grab nothing less.

Fleurpepper

You are not saying that the indigenous Muslim Palestianian population should have 'integrated' to the Jewish settlers? Or that Jewish settlers should have become Muslims?

This kind of comment is where I begin to feel despairing. I can’t work out whether you’re being ironic or sarcastic.
Surely most of us hope / pray for a two state solution.
Currently we have the awful Netanyahu government and the equally awful Hamas.
I do not accept the futile argument that the October massacre was a) the responsibility of the Israelis or B) allowed by Netanyahu so he could bomb the Palestinians into submission

Balfour wasn’t perfect. The 1948 agreement wasn’t perfect. We can’t change that. I believe we’re reahungbthe point where the UN arranges an international peacekeeping force. The USA and the current negotiators from Egypt etc would need to unite and find a way to enforce this.
Netanyahu / Hamas don’t want peace, that’s clear

My comment was in direct response to another post saying immigrants have to integrate.

A solution? I just cannot see one as it has all gone far far too far.

The 'West' should have not allowed any expansion after 1948, and stopped it very firmly. Too late now. Every bomb, every death, makes it worse. And what is happening now is nothing compared to what will happen next when this bit is over.

Tragically.

So you have no hope?

Determined we hang onto hope...

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, the Jews should have been prevented from migrating to Israel, there was plenty of space but the small local population has never accepted sharing with Jews. Now that population has grown and wants the Jews out, the Islamic ideology preaches that you should die for your beliefs.
Hamas is using this to gain propaganda, civilian deaths are martyrs, if the war escalated outside Gaza that “martyrdom” is likely to spread, millions will die.

David49

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, the Jews should have been prevented from migrating to Israel, there was plenty of space but the small local population has never accepted sharing with Jews. Now that population has grown and wants the Jews out, the Islamic ideology preaches that you should die for your beliefs.
Hamas is using this to gain propaganda, civilian deaths are martyrs, if the war escalated outside Gaza that “martyrdom” is likely to spread, millions will die.

There have always been Jews in Israel or Palestine back in the day. And I don’t think that Palestinians didn’t want to share, having already shared the country with Jews for very many years, but the problems arose when their homeland became the homeland of Jews to the exclusion of themselves, the illegal taking of their land and homes, and the fact they became treated like second class citizens. Apartheid was effectively forced upon them.
Fact is many Palestinians live in Haifa and other areas of Israel, not just the West Bank and Gaza, and they have shared their lives with Jews but have not enjoyed the same opportunities or freedoms.
Indeed I would reverse your argument and say that it is Israelis/Jews who have never wanted to share with Palestinians and done their utmost to drive them from the land.
Muslims can and go live peacefully alongside other peoples around the world, this isn’t about religion, is about geopolitics, power and greed. Religion just justifies the killing of others in the name of God, but is a man made construct.

Babs03

David49

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, the Jews should have been prevented from migrating to Israel, there was plenty of space but the small local population has never accepted sharing with Jews. Now that population has grown and wants the Jews out, the Islamic ideology preaches that you should die for your beliefs.
Hamas is using this to gain propaganda, civilian deaths are martyrs, if the war escalated outside Gaza that “martyrdom” is likely to spread, millions will die.

There have always been Jews in Israel or Palestine back in the day. And I don’t think that Palestinians didn’t want to share, having already shared the country with Jews for very many years, but the problems arose when their homeland became the homeland of Jews to the exclusion of themselves, the illegal taking of their land and homes, and the fact they became treated like second class citizens. Apartheid was effectively forced upon them.
Fact is many Palestinians live in Haifa and other areas of Israel, not just the West Bank and Gaza, and they have shared their lives with Jews but have not enjoyed the same opportunities or freedoms.
Indeed I would reverse your argument and say that it is Israelis/Jews who have never wanted to share with Palestinians and done their utmost to drive them from the land.
Muslims can and go live peacefully alongside other peoples around the world, this isn’t about religion, is about geopolitics, power and greed. Religion just justifies the killing of others in the name of God, but is a man made construct.

good reasoned response

babs03

Good post