School Bombed in Gaza

Whitewavemark2

Anyone listen to the today programme this morning with Mishal Hussain interviewing an Israeli representative?

Blimey!

I heard it - and initially was confused as the language was the same (as the rather rude and dismissing man who had preceded this one) but the voice was much older!

I had to look them up. The first was sacked.
The second obviously has the same script writer!

I felt "Blimey" too!

You may like to read this Whitewavemark:

www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel-gaza-historian-omer-bartov

Excellent summary Babs03.

And substantiated by the continuing illegal settlement expansion in the West Bank.

That's a very profound article, WWM. Including how and which news features in Israel, how things are presented.

Did you mean the Omer Bartov one Wyllow3 or have I missed it?

“Indeed I would reverse your argument and say that it is Israelis/Jews who have never wanted to share with Palestinians and done their utmost to drive them from the land.”

Even under the Ottomans the the Arabs didnt want to share, when the League of nations asked Britain to administer the region Arabs were attacking others, even though they were supposed to be sharing. It wasn’t until after WW2 that Israel drove the British out and subdued the Arabs that is the situation today

Wyllow3

That's a very profound article, WWM. Including how and which news features in Israel, how things are presented.

I think you mean the link posted by spaghetti?

Yes - I read it yesterday in the guardian, but it needs more than one reading I think to take on board everything he is saying.

I read it and found it very interesting albeit rather depressing. War is dehumanising, sadly regardless of how this war ends, Israelis as well as Palestinians will have to learn to live with the consequences and it won't be easy. Many secular Jews in Israel will decide to emigrate, leaving the balance of power in the hands of the Ultra religious and I find it difficult to imagine any long term peace. It's a really desperate situation.

“This is the logic of endless violence, a logic that allows one to destroy entire populations and to feel totally justified in doing so ………………. and nothing empowers violence more than a righteous sense of victimhood”

You hear this righteous sense of victimhood every time an Israeli spokesperson is interviewed. You see it on these threads.

Wrongly comparing Hamas with the Nazis has given the IDF permission to kill, kill, kill. To wipe out the memory of Palestinians.

To treat the Palestinans as less than animals and encourage Israelis to turn their face to the wall when images of dead Palestinian children are shown.

Who will be the first to ask them how much difference is this from the Holocaust?

Sorry my computer dropped out - battery flat.
Now plugged in😊

So I was going to add that my question at the end is as a result of the reading of the article.

I’m not sure i agree - well i have still to think about it.

But it made for very troubling reading.

I thought the majority her see Palestinians as victims

Anniebach

I thought the majority her see Palestinians as victims

You need to read the article in its entirety - to understand where my post is coming from.

Anniebach

I thought the majority her see Palestinians as victims

I think that's far too simplistic, just as it is to see Palestinians as the aggressors. I think the discussion on this thread and on others is much more nuanced.

One of the assertions of the article is that certainly since Oct. 7 and in fact prior to that, the Jewish historian argues that Israeli’s see themselves as the victims, just as the German did post WW1.

He goes on to argue that this victimhood gave the Germans permission to commit untold horrors on others largely but not exclusively the Jewish population in Europe.

He maintains that this idea of victimhood amongst the Israelis is resulting in a similar mentality. That victimhood empowers violence.

Sorry it’s a bit disjointed, I’m barbecuing😄 in the garden.

That's interesting. It's about taking reponsibility for your personal or national behaviour, maybe. If you are told you're a victim, or your country is at the mercy of "terrorists" "immigrants" "outsiders" & everything's unfair, then you feel less responsibility than if you are told you have a degree of power and are in control of your own destiny. If, having some control, you then commit atrocities, there is no excuse, whereas the victim can tell themselves they were driven to it.

Whitewavemark2

One of the assertions of the article is that certainly since Oct. 7 and in fact prior to that, the Jewish historian argues that Israeli’s see themselves as the victims, just as the German did post WW1.

He goes on to argue that this victimhood gave the Germans permission to commit untold horrors on others largely but not exclusively the Jewish population in Europe.

He maintains that this idea of victimhood amongst the Israelis is resulting in a similar mentality. That victimhood empowers violence.

Sorry it’s a bit disjointed, I’m barbecuing😄 in the garden.

This is interesting. Certainly those violent thugs taking part in the riots recently will also nurse a sense of victimhood, is the foundation stone of any racist group though they would describe themselves as nationalists. This then gave them the right to try to burn migrants alive inside their hotel.
It obviously spurs people on to commit heinous crimes without even a nodding aquiantance with a moral compass.

valdavi, your summary seems a good one to me. It also resonated with the victim mentality shown by racist rioters here recently
They complain ‘their country’ is being taken over so riot and attack anyone who stands in their way