Assisted dying

Totally in agreement at least there will be a recognized process of choice not a back door Liverpool pathway that leaves you dehydrated and in misery to the end. Palliative care does not work for some illnesses and can leave the dying in excruciating pain. I did not ask to be born in the first place ? All medical intervention is prolonging or killing - many drugs cause untold misery. I guess many of you take them but this is ok as it's your choice ? I choose not to take pharmaceuticals unless deemed not harmful.

JaneJudge

The care providers want to safeguard my adult daughter with SLD by putting her on contraception just incase male staff accidentally rape her and she becomes pregnant
Could you even make this up?

JaneJudge my friend that lived opposite me 25 years ago had exactly the same experience with her daughter with severe learning difficulties. They were recommending contraceptive implants to overcome any possibility of a pregnancy. J wasn't interested in men or sex but her respite residential care could maybe cause "an accident" if someone didn't realise she wasn't consenting!
It's beyond disgusting and I'm horrified attitudes like this persist these days.

Chocolatelovinggran

Oh Lahlah my heart goes out to you: what an awful situation, and what a terrible dilemma for you and your daughter.
I do share a little of your OH's suspicions which has always made me feel opposed to the concept, but Baggs well made point, and your difficulties have made me start to re- think.
Sending you a virtual hug and flowers.

Oh, that’s very sweet - thank you. It’s probably not as gloomy as it sounds - she has been ill for most of her adult life (after a thankfully normal childhood) and it’s our normal now. Nobody wants to have to have conversations with their loved ones, and especially their children, about end of life. But sometimes these are the cards we are dealt and we just have to play them the best we can.

This thread is also making me think about the importance of each of us trying to work out what about what our own personal limits are for enjoying life - and communicating these to our families. So even if we don’t opt for some kind of assisted dying, our lives are not prolonged beyond the point when we would rather go more gently. I take the points made elsewhere that these parameters will change as we age, which just makes it even more important to reconsider these from time to time. And to communicate these to our families earlier on, so that they understand what we would want and are not faced with trying to make difficult positions on our behalf. There is a very readable book about this by Atul Gawande called Being Mortal - really not gloomy and helpful.

It's also worth considering that our children don't always outlive us.

Lots of very worthwhile and valid opinions on this post on a very emotive and complex issue, and much food for thought.
I have actually changed my mind in the last couple of years during this debate, from being positive about the “freedom to choose”, to seeing that the negatives outweigh the positives.

I am seriously concerned about “safeguards” and would urge a look at how Canada’s MAID legislation has progressed from 2016, through Amendments in 2021 to the present 2024 Amendment which has a temporary exclusion until March 2027 (to allow for staff training, guidelines and standards). This Bill will allow those with a sole medical condition of mental illness to apply for MAID.
The numbers each year of those dying with MAID has increased greatly year on year.

I would also suggest viewing Liz Carr’s documentary Better off Dead” on BBC iPlayer looking at AD from the perspective of many with disabilities.

Rosie51

JaneJudge

The care providers want to safeguard my adult daughter with SLD by putting her on contraception just incase male staff accidentally rape her and she becomes pregnant
Could you even make this up?

JaneJudge my friend that lived opposite me 25 years ago had exactly the same experience with her daughter with severe learning difficulties. They were recommending contraceptive implants to overcome any possibility of a pregnancy. J wasn't interested in men or sex but her respite residential care could maybe cause "an accident" if someone didn't realise she wasn't consenting!
It's beyond disgusting and I'm horrified attitudes like this persist these days.

If it was a peer I could understand but she receives 1:1 care and they admitted it was to do with male care

Jane judge - I feel tearful reading your posts. Sadness but now I’m angry. Male care? No male sexual violence and exploitation

I’m advised to shut up or pay for deputyship for health, which I’m going to do
But this is normal now
I’m sorry it isn’t what the original threAd was about

I think your post JaneJudge is very relevant to this thread. What you have said with regard to your daughter’s situation is extremely upsetting, and the lack of power which you have in advocating in her best interests.

It serves to emphasise how helpless many vulnerable people feel with regard to their voices being heard in life affecting decision making.

Iam64

Galaxy, yes I understand and accept your point. I don’t believe people with ld’s or black women get the same opportunities/levels if care

the worriedwell. I’m suggesting that loving families, partners with LPA which they will have discussed in detail should be able to advocate for their loved one when that person can no longer advocate for themselves. I do hope you aren’t suggesting we did anything other than that for my husband/my chikdren’s father.
I have absolute faith in my daughters. They wouldn’t be joint executors on my LPA otherwise. Yes there are some bad people. I worked with families for 40 years. The majority were good, loving people

I'm saying the law that is being proposed isn't about family being advocates for assisted deaths, if that is what you want you are already pushing to change what is being proposed even before it becomes law. That is what worries many, that if this is accepted the push will start to move the boundaries.

Madgran77

*It can't be part of end of life palliative care as it isn't legal at the moment*

I didnt say it was legal! I said that assisted dying (is being looked) at as part of palliative care ...by which I meant in the context of palliative care and patient choice and control over their own end of life if their quality of life is not worth living for in the patients view.

You said it is part of palliative care, as of now it isn't.

Yes I did. I made the mistake of thinking it was clear that I was not referring to legality per se, I was referring to AD being part of palliative care generally as a positive
thing in my view when giving a patient some control and choice about their end of life.

Clearly I was incorrect in my assumption that that was clear!

Madgran77

Yes I did. I made the mistake of thinking it was clear that I was not referring to legality per se, I was referring to AD being part of palliative care generally as a positive
thing in my view when giving a patient some control and choice about their end of life.

Clearly I was incorrect in my assumption that that was clear!

Clearly because it is not part of palliative care at the moment and saying it is could cause distress to some people.

I’m not pushing for anything theworriedwell. I’m joining a discussion on the issue of assisted dying.

Clearly because it is not part of palliative care at the moment and saying it is could cause distress to some people.

I DIDN'T say it is LEGALLY which is the distinction. I have accepted I assumed it was clear and explained it. I would never knowingly cause distress and I am sorry if that has been the case for anyone.

We have each made our points on this and I will now move on as prolonging this unnecessarily when I have already explained, could also cause distress.

keepingquiet

I'm sorry but 'booking' your own death sounds like the stuff of nightmares to me.

Au contraire- massively so. I am a fighter, and a very positive person- but I am very grateful that, fully healthy and fit- I was allowed to join an organisation that would give me the choice, ultimately. So many people, fighting against cancer and other diseases, and hoping they will be able to get the best treatment and get better- have said the same. That if one day they realise the battle is lost, and it is just a question of time- they will have the choice to opt out at a point of their choosing.

So grateful too that I live in a country with a great health service, and excellent palliative care- which is no guarantee that end of life will not be extremely painful and /or with extreme and increasing loss of dignity. For about £40 a year, my membership of Exit (Switzerland)- will give me that choice, in my own home, even my garden, with family if they choose to be with me. And with every safeguard possible - I would be interviewed on my own, and asked very carefully framed questions, to ensure that a) I am totally sure this is what I want, that no-one is influencing me, and that there is no way back. And again on the chosen day, on my own - to ensure the above, again. All is filmed. Once the potion has been taken or the drip opened- by myself (no-one else can or will administer) - and death has occured and been confirmed- the film would be given to the Police for the Coroner to examine.

Knowing that that choice would, will, be open to me, IF and only IF - is actually truly positive. My Doctor OH feels just the same - he has seen so much pain since he qualified in 1969.

This has been the case in Switzerland for over half a century- NO slippery slope at all.

There is currently a court case regarding the use of a pod for assisted suicide, I think.

Fleurpepper Exactly as it should be. 💐

MissAdventure

There is currently a court case regarding the use of a pod for assisted suicide, I think.

Yes, used illegally and against Swiss Laws, and quite rightly being legally challenged. Good.

Forgot to say that, in fact, many people with terminal disease, who do have the ultimate choice, choose to live much longer, safe and relieved that the choice is theirs, if they come to the stage when they just can't bear the pain and loss of dignity.

In the UK, anyone wanting that choice, and who have the money and support, do have to go early, fearing that should their condition worsen, they will not be able to travel.

My mother was a Founder member- but she died naturally, aged 94. She always knew however, that the choice was hers.

That's one of the problems; having to go earlier than you'd like, because someone "assisting" you could be charged with a crime, isn't it?

It used to be the case, but I'm not up with how things are now.

Still is, but not in Scotland where assisting and accompanying is legal.

Fleurpepper thanks for your contributions. A close friend recently returned to Holland so she could be present with family as her 95 year old mother left this life. Her mother had gradually reached the point where osteo porosis, old age, frailty and persistent pain meant she was ready to leave after a good life.

If people want to use the new proposed facility - that is entirely their choice and I understand .

For me , as a Christian it goes against my faith .
I prefer to go when the good Lord takes me .