Assisted dying

keepingquiet

Madgran77

keepingquiet

I'm sorry but 'booking' your own death sounds like the stuff of nightmares to me.

Probably not such a nightmare if one is close to the
end of life with a non curable condition in great pain etc etc.

Why do people assume everybody dies in great pain? As a former nurse for twenty years and lots of deaths I rarely came across this. A similar situation with my family members- good end of life care ensures this does not happen in people who are terminally ill.

Well, it happened to a friend of ours in Australia. He was in a very good hospital, had been for some weeks, and the cancer (prostate) had got into his spine. He told dh that he’d thought he was able to handle pain, but this was something else.

Not long before the end he said, ‘I don’t think I want to endure much more of this.’
Presumably sufficient morphine to make him entirely comfortable would have been fatal - but he was dying anyway.
IMO it’s beyond cruel.

Luckygirl3

Before laws on assisted dying are passed, parliament needs t address the proper funding of end of life care. The two are inextricably linked, and as long as that care continues to be poor, then an objective vote cannot be taken.

You have hit the nail on the head Luckygirl.
Hospices, of which there are far too few, are experiencing a serious lack of funding. Palliative care services in and out of hospital are poorly funded. Social care is in a very poor state, and the government has cancelled the cap on care costs.

The lack of funding (or will to fund) these services has a huge bearing on whether a debate on Assisted Dying will really be an ethical or economic choice.

The lack of funding (or will to fund) these services has a huge bearing on whether a debate on Assisted Dying will really be an ethical or economic choice.

Yes 👏👏

Farzanah your last paragraph hit the nail firmly on the head.
👏👏👏

OldFrill

People with religious objections should abstain. The bill is about choice. I don't want my choice denied by others' religious dogma.

Absolutely!

It frightens me tbh, I used to think that it may be a good thing, but I do worry that some people will feel that is their only option as they don't want to be a "burden" on others and think they "may"have pain that they can't cope with . But pain control is available to people with a diagnosed illness and options are available. I do wonder if pain when people are very ill and being giving prescribed pain control but say it isn't working, is more emotional rather than physical? Do we need to understand the difference
Will this bill w make it easier to end your life and feel in control, perhaps for some but not for everyone.

I find myself shying away from thinking about this.

I think it is telling that over 80% of doctors and over 80% of those working in palliative care are against assisted dying. Doctors went into the profession to try their best to heal people, with the motto engrained into their training of 'first do no harm'. Basically they don't want to be part of killing people! As a nurse many years ago we used to ease people out of this life if their pain became too much, it was never made common knowledge, and I believe that now patients and relatives are asked if they would like to be rendered unconscious in cases like this.

For me the problem of the slippery slope is insurmountable, and this is why the disabled are so against it. As with abortion, which started off with very strict criteria which were then gradually relaxed. I am all for abortion as long as it is not just used as birth control, but it seems that is effectively how it is being used now for many people.

You start off with limiting it to people judged to have less than six months to live, then you expand it to those with life limiting diseases, then to those with incurable diseases, then to adults with mental health problems, then children with mental health problems, until there are very few limits at all. If assisted dying goes through, no safeguards will prevent the expansion scope, as can be seen in countries who have started down this route.

To me it is the worry of coercion by relatives who don't want to see the house go in care fees, but more than that, just the feeling of guilt from those who feel they are becoming an expensive burden, and that it is their duty to request death to relieve others of that worry. If there was an option to save the bulk of my savings for the family, rather than spend it on care, I know that I would feel duty bound to take it.

It isn't just about end of life care. Someone could be in pain and suffering physically and mentally for a year or more before they die.

For me it's about the quality of life as well as the quality of death.

If assisted dying is allowed then excellent safeguards need to be in place for medical staff too. B9 is right - I suspect many dying patients in intractable pain would prefer doses of pain killers that relieve their pain even if there is risk of hastening death- but fear under treatment.

So, again it raises the question of people suffering with mental health issues.

Does immense suffering mean that they too, will be given the option?

I've asked this question before, and met with, well, not very many responses, but it does need to be included in the discussion.

Also, the thought that anyone who watched someone suffer wanting their loved one to be euthanized; I never wanted my daughter to be, because she did a complete about turn on her original views, and battled hard to live.

Strong supporter of assisted dying here. So many people at end of life beg for it, & the doctors have to explain they can't. It goes hand -in-hand with good palliative care, we should have both. Good palliative care does not mean there's no place for assisted dying, neither does assisted dying mean that individuals can't choose to go naturally with respect & good symptom relief.

I don't think so MissA, two doctors have to independently state that the patient has a terminal illness.

What I'm saying is that having been diagnosed, the patient could have a year or more to live and not wish to do so with increased pain which, loss of dignity etc which as well as being increasingly difficult to deal with physically, can be difficult emotionally and mentally.

I've just been reading about a neurosurgeon who, did surgery using the knife he used to cut up his sandwiches.

I'm not sure I'd want someone that sort given any say in my life or death.

Or any of the people who witnessed it and didn't say anything!!

Doctors giving prognosis would probably be medical rather than surgical, if that's any comfort.

We send MPs to Parliament to decide things for us. We don't need a referendum on assisted dying. Look what happened with Brexit: all kinds of lies, misinformation, etc., and a result which divided the UK for many years to come.

Not really.
It's just an example of the mindset of some of the important people.

Makes you wonder how they got where they did, and how many more are lurking around.

Couple that with governments, and even some families...

keepingquiet

I'm sorry but 'booking' your own death sounds like the stuff of nightmares to me.

A nightmare is watching someone with motor neurone disease paralysed from the neck down.

Smileless2012

It isn't just about end of life care. Someone could be in pain and suffering physically and mentally for a year or more before they die.

For me it's about the quality of life as well as the quality of death.

So true, and loss of dignity and independence would be abhorrent to me.

Mental illness can cause the loss of both of those, arguably moreso.

Jane43

Blinko

I’m in favour of choice at the end of life but also have concerns that some could be coerced. Safeguards would need to be put in place.

I read that in one country where there is choice - I think Canada was mentioned - where the means to end one’s life was made available, in the end up to 60% did not take that option.

I think the option should be there.

We have experience of this with relatives in Canada. My husband’s aunt was in her early nineties, she had always been active but in later years her mobility was limited, her eyesight was fading and she was having problems with her hearing. All the things she used to enjoy were taken away: walking, reading, puzzles, quizzes and dancing. She told us she prayed every night not to wake up the next morning. She applied for MAID and her application was granted, she was able to choose the time and place and who to have with her. She had time to say her goodbyes to her nearest and dearest and her two daughters were with her at the end. Soon after this my sister-in-law’s husband was diagnosed with MND, called ALS in Canada, he could have opted for MAID but chose not to, his suffering was very traumatic for my SIL and her husband’s family but it was his choice. I’m sure there will be safeguards in place and I hope the option will be there for everybody in this country who wants to end their suffering.

Wasn't there a scandal about a homeless disabled man in Canada being offered this as a solution to his homeless problem? I'm not convinced about the safeguards.

sweetpea

Yes, I agree with Bridie22 but why should MPs get a vote, surely it should be taken by us all?

What? Another referendum. I don't think I can stomach it tbh. After things happening in my family, I fully support the right to choose and that people should not be subjected to unimaginable pain and suffering just because some disabled people like Tammi G-T say they would be coerced when there would be safeguards and when people like Esther Ranzten are actually just saying they want to make their own choice and not be coerced by people like Tammi to suffer unendurable pain at end of life. We wouldn't let a dog suffer in the way people with terminal illnesses are expected to currently, and yes I have seen people in good palliative care who still want to be released from suffering. Nobody is saying disabled people should be coerced into assisted dying but why should people in horrible pain that even palliative care doesn't relieve be forced to endure it when they just want to have their own choice recognised.

But that is what will happen. I suppose it depends if you think the coerced deaths of people with disabilities is a price worth paying.

This time two years ago my lovely husband was entering end of life care. Stage 4 metastasised cancer and 3 strokes over the previous 3 days, the last one catastrophic.
On day 4 the doctor managing his care and said come in now. He’s very poorly. Yes, bring your daughters.
He was moved into a tiny side ward, we spent the last 4 days of his life in that room, taking turns to sleep on the chair , the camp bed or the floor.
He was given increasing morphine to help with pain and agitation. The staff couldn’t have offered better care to him, or to us. I remain for ever grateful for their professionalism and compassion. I’ve a special place in my heart for the ancillary staff - I wasn’t eating, they made run d’s of white bread toast and mugs of tea, nursing, ancillary, doctors hugged us.

By day 6 if we could have asked for his morphine to be increased to end his suffering, we would have done. One of my daughters wept, she said mum this is wrong, you wouldn’t let any of your dogs suffer like this. She was right 💖💙

Galaxy

But that is what will happen. I suppose it depends if you think the coerced deaths of people with disabilities is a price worth paying.

I already said disabled people have their own choice. And so they should. Non-disabled people with unimaginable pain should have their own choice too, with safeguards in place. People in horrible pain should not be forced to live in horrible pain when their prognosis is death in 6 months but pain until that happens. I have seen people in palliative care. It does not always mean the terminally ill person is without pain. I think people should have the right to choose not to live in unendurable miserable pain but, if some choose that, that's their choice. Doctors who disagree should have the right to opt out just like they do on abortion