The US Election.

David49

Musk is the richest person on the planet, his rockets are sent to the moon, he is a genius far in excess of any fictional Bond villain ever was.

I don’t know how many jobs he creates, he certainly uses his wealth creatively, love him or loathe him the US would be poorer without him.

Well nice to know there is a gain somewhere when he is certainly a loss to humanity.

Babs03

David49

Musk is the richest person on the planet, his rockets are sent to the moon, he is a genius far in excess of any fictional Bond villain ever was.

I don’t know how many jobs he creates, he certainly uses his wealth creatively, love him or loathe him the US would be poorer without him.

Well nice to know there is a gain somewhere when he is certainly a loss to humanity.

If only we could make emotion and humanity pay the bills.

I loathe him (Musk), he may be the richest person in the US which gives him power but IMO he doesn't use that power in a way that is good for his fellow man and woman. There is a huge mismatch between his intellectual capacity and emotional intelligence, which is very sad, just imagine how incredible he could be but he's just another very rich white man throwing his weight around and his toys out of the pram if he doesn't get his way.

David49

Musk is the richest person on the planet, his rockets are sent to the moon, he is a genius far in excess of any fictional Bond villain ever was.

I don’t know how many jobs he creates, he certainly uses his wealth creatively, love him or loathe him the US would be poorer without him.

... but no-one is denying his genius.

Being the richest man on the planet does not make him omniscient.

He is shaping the future, a future governed by AI - an -inter-planetary civilisation - it has made him extremely wealthy.

... and he cannot help but use his wealth 'creatively' - to make his ideas and innovations a reality, people have to be employed.

Which is the point. Without people, no millionaire, billionaire or trillionaire can make his fortune or shape the future. Those people who work for him or his industries or offshoots along with the rest of society have a right to say how they are governed - or are you suggesting that as he is the richest man on the planet, the future should be decided solely by him?

With great power comes great responsibility, and I don't think the sight of the richest man in the world pouring millions and and millions into an extremely violent and possibly unbalanced presidential candidate to further his own continuing gain "using worth creatively".

“Which is the point. Without people, no millionaire, billionaire or trillionaire can make his fortune or shape the future. Those people who work for him or his industries or offshoots along with the rest of society have a right to say how they are governed - or are you suggesting that as he is the richest man on the planet, the future should be decided solely by him?”

Without wealth creation we would all live in caves and wear animal skins, human enterprise has provided us with the lifestyle we have today, it may not be perfect but it’s a whole lot better than living in a mud hut or cave and hunting your own food.

But what rights does that give him to try to "buy" elections, and use his own social media platform to push his own political agenda? Interfere in other countries political affairs?

MaizieD I may have missed something ipthread but I thought they had put things in place???
Ami wrong?

David49

“Which is the point. Without people, no millionaire, billionaire or trillionaire can make his fortune or shape the future. Those people who work for him or his industries or offshoots along with the rest of society have a right to say how they are governed - or are you suggesting that as he is the richest man on the planet, the future should be decided solely by him?”

Without wealth creation we would all live in caves and wear animal skins, human enterprise has provided us with the lifestyle we have today, it may not be perfect but it’s a whole lot better than living in a mud hut or cave and hunting your own food.

Without wealth creation we would all live in caves and wear animal skins, human enterprise has provided us with the lifestyle we have today, it may not be perfect but it’s a whole lot better than living in a mud hut or cave and hunting your own food.

And, basically - forgetting Musk for a moment - these wealth-creators would be left sitting staring at their raw materials if it wasn't for the brawn and brains of the people they employed.

In 1967, Sweden changed from driving on the left to the right in order to be more in line with the rest of Europe. Vehicles had to have their left-hand-traffic headlamps replaced, which was expensive.

My (Swedish) partner who is mechanically-minded devised an inexpensive way to alter the beam without replacing the units, and set up an (approved) business doing just that. He made some money, but not enough to be classed as one of the 'wealthy'.

My point in illustrating this is that I don't think he's unique- I believe there are many intelligent people, and always have been, who enjoy using their skills and who are clever - so I really don't believe we'd still be living in caves if it wasn't for the wealth-creators. I believe we evolve and find ways to improve our lives; simplify onerous tasks, make life easier. It's part of our human nature. I don't accept your still living in caves argument.

“How Donald Trump is laying the groundwork to dispute the election results – again”

edition.cnn.com/2024/11/03/politics/donald-trump-disputing-election-results/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

Lower down I the article “Elon Musk’s misinformation machine” is interesting.

Also “Baseless claims of rampant non-citizen voting”

Fears of another attempt to challenge the result” in here

“Since the chaos in the aftermath of the 2020 election, officials have spent the past four years preparing both for increased threats of violence and efforts to block the certification of a legitimate election result.

Election officials have been inundated with threats of violence since the 2020 election.
They’ve responded in 2024 by stepping up efforts to protect polling places and their workers on Election Day, including with bulletproof glass, wearable panic buttons and open lines of communication with local law enforcement.

Last month, the FBI and Department of Homeland Security warned that “election-related grievances” could motivate domestic extremists to engage in violence before and after the November election.

Ballots and drop boxes have been targeted already. Authorities are investigating fires at ballot boxes in Portland, Oregon, and Vancouver, Washington, where hundreds of ballots were destroyed or damaged.”

“The “Stop the Steal” movement has already reemerged before Election Day, and many of those activists have been telling their supporters that the only way Trump can lose in 2024 is through fraud.”

Its widely thought that Trump will claim victory early, after the in person polling is counted but before the postal ballots are finished (this can be days after in some states, and are thought to favour the democrats)
"n his speech, Trump baselessly claimed Democrats are “fighting so hard to steal this damn thing,” and that voting machines would be tampered with.

“They spend all this money, all this money on machines, and they’re going to say, we may take an extra 12 days to determine. And what do you think happens during that 12 days? What do you think happens?” Trump said.

The crowd yelled back: “Cheating!”

“These elections have to be, they have to be decided by 9 o’clock, 10 o’clock, 11 o’clock on Tuesday night. Bunch of crooked people, these are crooked people,” Trump said.

The former president’s newest round of threats caps off a campaign with one of the darkest, most menacing closing messages in modern American history. In the last few weeks alone, Trump has doubled down on a pledge to use the military to combat the civilian “enemy within”"

edition.cnn.com/2024/11/03/politics/trump-dark-closing-message/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc

foxie48

I loathe him (Musk), he may be the richest person in the US which gives him power but IMO he doesn't use that power in a way that is good for his fellow man and woman. There is a huge mismatch between his intellectual capacity and emotional intelligence, which is very sad, just imagine how incredible he could be but he's just another very rich white man throwing his weight around and his toys out of the pram if he doesn't get his way.

Think him being autistic has something to do with that

Thanks for that info and links Wyllow3.

... there's so much to take in.

I wonder how long all the postal ballots will take to be counted?

And, importantly, whether there will be demands for recounts at State level because of accusations of fraud?

I've been researching the history of post-election disputes which go far back to 1876, Some states have an automatic recount provision for a 'close-call' but I gather the majority allow a losing candidate/ voter / group of 'concerned' parties to petition for a recount.

Hmm...

I'd like David to explain how Musk creates wealth. Does he have a printing press in his garden to churn out dollars for him?

Rich people get rich by moving money from consumers to their pockets. The money the consumers used is created by governments, which are the only issuers of the state currency. Even though banks are able to create money for loans they can only do it with the approval of the government and even then, the money that they create actually comes back to them when the loan is repaid. BUT, it comes back to them PLUS interest, which is paid, not from the money they created, but from the government created money. So they, too, only account for money moving around the economy, not the actual expansion of the money supply. Once the money comes back to them it is virtually destroyed, plus they've sucked a bit more out of the economy.

So, at the base of this process are people, as others have pointed out. The people who actually make the product, or carry out the services offered by the entrepreneur, and the consumer who buy the product or services.

The trillions of money held by wealthy people represent the money that states have issued over the years which the states haven't been able to recover from them via taxation.

When it comes down to it one has to ask, is it a valid use of state created money to allow it to accumulate in the coffers of the wealthy, where much of it does little other than suck in more money by way of dividends and interest, or should it be more evenly distributed to enable all citizens to live reasonably comfortable lives?

Obviously the wealthy have one answer to that question... so do their sycophants. But what about the rest of us?

How are the people going to feed and house themselves if they don’t have paid work too do, you want to live in a rural third world village where there is no work, if you don’t grow your own food you don’t eat. That’s what no work means, nobody works for nothing someone has to pay them.

This money MaizieD - I keep thinking of Medicare (or whatever its called now_ and how dreadfully inadequate it is, and the consequences on the poorest, them I think of Musk giving Trump 75 billion in one go - and I just feel disgust 😡

Yes Dickens was thinking the days and days - must be recounts. If it's close, yes - I dont know about the "concerned parties" but Trump is sure to use it? Could drag on - costing yet more.

Interesting article about how Trump is doing/has been doing. Covers the inside of the campaign. Worth reading.

In the Atlantic - but a free article:

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/trump-2024-campaign-lewandowski-conway/680456/?gift=BbUa1UILp6ylLELDRQL6id6F98g3eh7YtwIodYRstsQ&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Its quite a read - but a fascinating glimpse inside Trumps' team NotSpaghetti

NotSpaghetti

MaizieD I may have missed something ipthread but I thought they had put things in place???
Ami wrong?

I was really just saying that it would be pretty clueless of them if they hadn't

Both sides are prepared to challenge any close results, not just Trump.
Reports said both the Republicans and the Democrats were getting ‘lawyered up’.

Some express disgust at Musk’s huge financial contribution to the Trump campaign.
I am more disgusted by the Labour party sending one hundred politicians to campaign on behalf of Harris.
I remember how cross I felt when Obama brought over here with his dire threats about what would happen if we voted to leave the EU.

Meanwhile, some analysts are saying the world will be a safer place with Donald Trump as President as his unpredictability makes dangerous, volatile world leaders too nervous to act.

David49

How are the people going to feed and house themselves if they don’t have paid work too do, you want to live in a rural third world village where there is no work, if you don’t grow your own food you don’t eat. That’s what no work means, nobody works for nothing someone has to pay them.

I'm not disputing that, David. What I am pointing out is that they don't create any wealth, they just suck it in from, ultimately, consumers.

It should be perfectly feasible to grow provide food, shelter etc. as a business without being, or becoming, incredibly wealthy to do so. In fact, aren't people moaning about the effect of IHT on our 'poor' farmers who give such valuable service?

And isn't it accepted that the backbone of economies tends to be the millions of SMEs which provide for many of our wants/needs, and provide employment, without the owners becoming unfeasibly wealthy?

SMEs. Many are not that small I don’t know how many employees is the most that qualify. Clearly a haulage business has to employ a driver for every truck, the owner is usually the manager and may have 10 trucks. Even Elon Musk started as an SME, most stay as an SME a few grow into big companies.

Musks wealth is entirely the value based on the company shares, the value the stock market puts on them, he obviously needs a lot of employees to run the companies, making the products we want to buy.

How does Musk spend $300 billion the answer is he doesn’t, Bill Gates gives most of it away to charity. Capitalism means individuals accumulate wealth, all wealth controlled by the state has been tried and failed USSR, Cuba and Venezuela.

There is no incentive to work so everyone is worse off, China although a communist state does allow personal wealth if you follow the party rules. Those that abhor wealth really would not like living in a communist state where wealth doesn’t exist.

Wyllow3

This money MaizieD - I keep thinking of Medicare (or whatever its called now_ and how dreadfully inadequate it is, and the consequences on the poorest, them I think of Musk giving Trump 75 billion in one go - and I just feel disgust 😡

Yes Dickens was thinking the days and days - must be recounts. If it's close, yes - I dont know about the "concerned parties" but Trump is sure to use it? Could drag on - costing yet more.

Give over, I think you mean million!

Oops yes. 🫢

Mind you, he's been busy causing problems/spreading lies last minute

"
Elon Musk’s misinformation megaphone has created a “huge problem” for election officials in key battleground states who told CNN they’re struggling to combat the wave of falsehoods coming from the tech billionaire and spreading wildly on his X platform."

Election officials in pivotal battleground states including Pennsylvania, Michigan and Arizona have all tried – and largely failed – to fact-check Musk in real time. At least one has tried passing along personal notes asking he stop spreading baseless claims likely to mislead voters.

“I’ve had my friends hand-deliver stuff to him,” said Stephen Richer, a top election official in Arizona’s Maricopa County, a Republican who has faced violent threats for saying the 2020 election was secure.

edition.cnn.com/2024/10/31/politics/election-officials-outmatched-elon-musk-misinformation

foxie48

I loathe him (Musk), he may be the richest person in the US which gives him power but IMO he doesn't use that power in a way that is good for his fellow man and woman. There is a huge mismatch between his intellectual capacity and emotional intelligence, which is very sad, just imagine how incredible he could be but he's just another very rich white man throwing his weight around and his toys out of the pram if he doesn't get his way.

Precisely. We do well to remember the number of people who become CEO’s , parliamentarians/congressmen, who lack empathy or emotional intelligence. Musk and Trump prime examples.