The UK population is in decline

AGAA4

I think people are having less children for economic reasons amongst others. Two of my ACs only have one child each. The days of large families are over. Young adults with skills coming into the country would help.

Even better, would be for firms to train our own young people.

Witzend

AGAA4

I think people are having less children for economic reasons amongst others. Two of my ACs only have one child each. The days of large families are over. Young adults with skills coming into the country would help.

Even better, would be for firms to train our own young people.

Apprenticeships would certainly be a useful way to go - complete with part of them spent in College learning the proper way to do things (so they do know the proper way to do things - rather than only "picking it up on the job" - which may or may not mean they learn how to do it properly).

There are far too many people in the world using up finite resources. The LAST thing the world needs is more people. Fewer people would mean a better quality of life for everyone. This country, in particular, has far too many people in it. I can remember a time when there was room to move in towns and cities and when driving was a pleasure. More people - NO NO NO!

I never understood the rationale of not training our own people, surely investing in our young should be paramount instead of letting them languish without a purpose. Germany's education system I believe has a more two pronged approach, one for those who want to take an academic route and another for those whose abilities are more geared towards the much needed practical vocations.. Instead we adopted Tony Blair's foolish idea that an overwhelming number of young people should go to university whether they were suited for that or not. It's still quite apparent that we don't have enough plumbers for example, hence the wave of Polish plumbers that free movement produced. My main grouse about that was how for a good few years wages were suppressed which of course suited The Federation of British Industry and unscrupulous employers. It's quite obvious wages have fallen behind and many can't afford even the basics. Gordon Brown's initiative of in- work employment top ups also gave businesses a loophole to hold wages down. I'm not against immigration per se, I know it is required, but it does need to be targeted. We can't go back now though we have added to the population considerably since the Millennium, hence the dire shortage of housing and infrastructure here in the south east. That's not to say many of the new settlers undeniably brought much valued skills and expertise. Their children will be the 2nd generationers of tomorrow. Presumably their parents will want them to adopt their work ethic, they may find Britain too laissez faire in what it demands of its younger generation. Poland it seems is on an upward trajectory, long gone the downtrodden USSR Satellite, more an emerging powerhouse. I do wonder if some will see going back to the old country a better bet in the future. .

CariadAgain

Witzend

AGAA4

I think people are having less children for economic reasons amongst others. Two of my ACs only have one child each. The days of large families are over. Young adults with skills coming into the country would help.

Even better, would be for firms to train our own young people.

Apprenticeships would certainly be a useful way to go - complete with part of them spent in College learning the proper way to do things (so they do know the proper way to do things - rather than only "picking it up on the job" - which may or may not mean they learn how to do it properly).

This is already being done. My Grandson and his friend did an apprenticeship scheme, 5 years ago now. Now a highly payed AM.
Apprenticeship has always been on the agenda in this part of the world, from bricklaying,plumbing, electrical, catering, now EC centre, renewable energy, wind turbines apprenticeships. All in the centre of our small town, which has had a technical college sine 1944. So if here why not elsewhere??

I don't suppose you happen to know how many females are signed up for the apprenticeships Freya?

Grantanow

The UK replacement rate (births minus deaths) is declining and that is helpfully offset by increased immigration. Should the government take measures to increase the birthrate - a bounty for extra kids, family allowance for all kids, a cheap rail and bus ticket for large families (as in France) and meantime increase immigration for those of working age from the EU and elsewhere?

There was a discussion on the radio last week. Many countries in the world face this problem. In South Korea the birthrate has fallen below one child per woman and Italy isn't far below.

Unfortunately incentives do not work. Many countries have offered all kinds of incentives for families to consider having more children, but they have no effect.

The only time country to have success overcoming the problem and increased the population was Roumania under their communist leader, Nicolai Ceausesco. He banned all contraception and abortion for any reason and made using contraception or abortion a criminal offence with severe punishment. Not a system you could introduce in a democratic country.

Instead we adopted Tony Blair's foolish idea that an overwhelming number of young people should go to university whether they were suited for that or not.

Everybody knows that we have a two-tier (if not three-tier) university system. Most of the newer universities offer more vocational courses and are still considered (by some) to be second-rate, while the older universities tend to offer more traditional courses. The number of places in higher education hasn't increased as much as people think. Blair turned the former polytechnics and colleges of higher education into universities, in an attempt to give them parity of status with the universities.

Incidentally, "vocational" doesn't necessarily mean less academic. Law and medicine are vocational, but require some of the highest A level grades.

Nigel Lawson was Chancellor when Family Credit (which also supported families in work) was introduced in 1986.

Allira

Grantanow

The UK replacement rate (births minus deaths) is declining and that is helpfully offset by increased immigration. Should the government take measures to increase the birthrate - a bounty for extra kids, family allowance for all kids, a cheap rail and bus ticket for large families (as in France) and meantime increase immigration for those of working age from the EU and elsewhere?

No!

The only way for this Earth to recover for future generations and for our wildlife to survive is for populations to decline, not increase.

I agree👏🏻👏🏻

All the nations in this decline are watching Japan, which is the first country to ride this wave.

No point in looking to immigration, apart from countries rent by war. Most of the countries legal immigrants come from already have declining populations and are soon going to wantntheir immigrants back!

Have you wondered why governments want to raise retirement ages? It is because there are not enough young workers to pay enough taxation to pay for pensions.

Perhaps one incentive would be to give higher pensions to people with the most children!

How is this growing population going to be fed?
In 2021 the German company Bayer exported thousands of tons of the banned insecticide Neonicotinoids to 51 countries.
They are exported to these countries because they are banned in the eu and uk.
There is a big program going on in these countries pushed through by GreenPeace.
This insecticide is particularly dangerous to bees. Without them the human race is stuffed.
And, these banned insecticides are sent to some of the poorest countries.

IOMGran

Wen need to stop measuring success in terms of growth. We need to measure it in terms of quality of life and happiness.

Hear,hear, IOMGran 🙂

growstuff

I don't suppose you happen to know how many females are signed up for the apprenticeships Freya?

Now that would be interesting to know. I'm in area of the country where the only tradespeople all appear to be men (though I've heard tell there might be one or two female painters). I would love to employ female ones if I could find them - as a lot of the male ones here have very sexist attitudes (which extend to the fact that pedestrian me has had several near miss road accidents - all "white van men" - since moving here and never ever had that once in the much longer time I lived in my previous city). So - yep the sexism of some of the male tradespeople here extends to careless driving/blow the nearby pedestrian and when I yell at them for nearly hitting me they never ever even apologise and obviously couldn't care less!

Bring on the women I say - and I can see a few of the postpeople are now female and a couple of the busdrivers - and I want to see more/much more of that - as they've always been amongst the most efficient I've come across here.

M0nica

Grantanow

The UK replacement rate (births minus deaths) is declining and that is helpfully offset by increased immigration. Should the government take measures to increase the birthrate - a bounty for extra kids, family allowance for all kids, a cheap rail and bus ticket for large families (as in France) and meantime increase immigration for those of working age from the EU and elsewhere?

There was a discussion on the radio last week. Many countries in the world face this problem. In South Korea the birthrate has fallen below one child per woman and Italy isn't far below.

Unfortunately incentives do not work. Many countries have offered all kinds of incentives for families to consider having more children, but they have no effect.

The only time country to have success overcoming the problem and increased the population was Roumania under their communist leader, Nicolai Ceausesco. He banned all contraception and abortion for any reason and made using contraception or abortion a criminal offence with severe punishment. Not a system you could introduce in a democratic country.

What happened in Rumania just goes to show many women don't want children/more children (as the case may be). I bet that's one consequence of the Internet that no-one much thought of - ie we can/do read account after account of what pregnancy/childbirth/bringing up children has been like for so many women and that must be the most effective form of contraception out there I sometimes think.

My own generation (ie Baby Boomer) knew a tiny bit about what pregnancy and childbirth was like - but all I personally remember was my school showing us all a video of a woman literally giving birth. That was probably the best contraception ever LOL - as several boys and one girl (guess who?) promptly thought it was so horrific we fainted.

I was so very grateful for that solitary little thing I knew of what it was like - as I'd have had no idea from my ultra-reserved mother and the way she could still wear a bikini and look very good in it (still with her size 8 figure and unmarked skin).

So - younger women are so lucky these days that they hear much more of what pregnancy and childbirth are like/they themselves might be at risk of and the Internet is one genie they can't "put back in the box" and erase that knowing from their minds - and the consequent decision of many of them to restrict the number of children they have or not have any at all.

So - yep our own indigenous population is going to continue to go down and it is a problem as to how we maintain our own way of life/secular society etc.

CariadAgain

growstuff

I don't suppose you happen to know how many females are signed up for the apprenticeships Freya?

Now that would be interesting to know. I'm in area of the country where the only tradespeople all appear to be men (though I've heard tell there might be one or two female painters). I would love to employ female ones if I could find them - as a lot of the male ones here have very sexist attitudes (which extend to the fact that pedestrian me has had several near miss road accidents - all "white van men" - since moving here and never ever had that once in the much longer time I lived in my previous city). So - yep the sexism of some of the male tradespeople here extends to careless driving/blow the nearby pedestrian and when I yell at them for nearly hitting me they never ever even apologise and obviously couldn't care less!

Bring on the women I say - and I can see a few of the postpeople are now female and a couple of the busdrivers - and I want to see more/much more of that - as they've always been amongst the most efficient I've come across here.

For once I agree with you CariadAgain. I'm actually in favour of more high quality apprenticeships. However, it's concerned me for some time that most of them are in traditional 'male' jobs, especially the Level 3 (and beyond) apprenticeships.

How can more girls be persuaded to go into trade apprenticeships? I actually do know one, but she's such a rarity (the only one on her scheme) that she's always hand-picked to appear on the front of publicity leaflets and invited to talk to the press and schools, etc. about her experience.

PS. I've noticed an increase in female bus drivers, but many of them seem to be Eastern European. I'm not objecting at all to having Eastern European bus drivers, but I wonder if their upbringing has had less sexist attitudes to employment.

though I've heard tell there might be one or two female painters)
There must be more than one or two in the country or perhaps we've employed both of them!

Allira

^though I've heard tell there might be one or two female painters)^
There must be more than one or two in the country or perhaps we've employed both of them!

Oi! That's a bit selfish!

My partner has been having various bits of work done on his house and we've seriously not come across any female tradespeople.

My neighbour is Hungarian and is the manager of a small engineering company. We were having a conversation about the gender of the women he employs (without exception male). Apparently, he hasn't come across this in other countries where he's worked (Hungary, Germany, Canada). His wife (also Hungarian) works in another small engineering factory and is the only female in her role. Both did engineering apprenticeships in Hungary.

IOMGran

Wen need to stop measuring success in terms of growth. We need to measure it in terms of quality of life and happiness.

I fully agree, IOMGran, though I might say in terms of "contentment" over "happiness."
If all services, including the NHS, are cut to the bone; if our housing situation is a shambles and if crime everywhere is rife, with so many desperate people trying and failing to access the same things, then is it such a good idea to rapidly grow the population? I'm suggesting there might be other priorities first.

We have a chartered engineer (MSc) in the family. Perhaps she's unusual?

The problem starts with government interference. People have the right to chose whether to have families. But families have to be structural (Man, Woman and children- May not be perfect but that should be the aspiration). Where governments have interfered such as China and India it hasn't worked. These have been driven by secular philosophies the so called panacea of success. There is a difference between exponential growth and simple arithmetic progression. If a society grows exponentially and there are "no limits" to growth, that society will naturally have fewer children as opposed to no children. Some may decide not have any children and that is neither right or wrong. Global economic well being is the start. When the western governments stop interfering in sub saharan africa and the middle east there will be reduced desire to have lots of children or emigrate. Countries also need single market collaboration where the market can stabilise out on goods and services. From a UK perspective the trade is not frictionless, except between NI/Republic. So the newer trade is from Turkey and India both countries are now allowing freedom of movement due trades in computer and technology. And yes those immigrants will initially have large families but as they see success the birth rate will naturally decline after 3 or 4 generations (cf Muslim at 3.0 in the UK and 3.8 in Pakistan and 2.18 in saudi arabia due to economic growth.

A modest improvement in UK fecundity is a drop in the ocean compared with high rates of reproduction in third world countries where education and contraception are in short supply and which is leading to world overpopulation. It's noticeable that with some 750,000 immigrants to the UK in 2022 only about 20,000 settled in Scotland which suggests over a decade of SNP rule has not made Scotland an attractive place. My main point as the OP was that the UK would be an ageing country without immigration and that would mean fewer workers to support retirees though taxation and through working in the NHS and care sectors.

I presume the vast majority of immigrants came to the UK either as students or to work though Grantanow, so isn’t a relatively small number in Scotland due more to there not being so many students there and less jobs offered to them?