‘Police treat classroom jibes as hate incidents’.

I know there is the hard dad or brother image that some bullies are forced to be like, but others are people who enjoy hurting and humiliating people they don't like or consider different or weaker than them and will form a clique of friends with the same outlook. Some do become complete failures in life, I can think of two my age who were bullies who have become total failures as adults, but there are others who use their bullying nature and supposed popularity to advance in their careers.

Oreo

Am amazed that anyone wants to be a teacher now.

So am I.

growstuff

Oreo

Am amazed that anyone wants to be a teacher now.

So am I.

Me, too.

Teaching is great.
It is the lack of sanctions that failed us.

eazybee

Teaching is great.
It is the lack of sanctions that failed us.

Not just that, but the tick box mentality and lack of autonomy and flexibility to use methodology teachers know works.

If there is a hardman father or brother causing issues at home for the bully then involving the police is an even better idea. Hopefully the issue will be addressed or the bully removed to a safer environment.

Involving the police I agree with - children of this age will learn their lesson if a powerful adult tells them. & "retard" is a horrible jibe. I don't agree with worried well about taking the bully from their home though, massively traumatic for child & parents, & unlikely they'd be safer as a "looked after" child!!

Depends how toxic the home environment is. If we are using problems at home as an excuse those problems should be looked at. They might not be much in which case they aren't much of an excuse if they are extreme the child/bully needs protecting. Some kids end up dead as no one looks at what's going on in the home.

growstuff

eazybee

Teaching is great.
It is the lack of sanctions that failed us.

Not just that, but the tick box mentality and lack of autonomy and flexibility to use methodology teachers know works.

Not just that, but the tick box mentality and lack of autonomy and flexibility to use methodology teachers know works.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why, so frequently, bullying appears to be something that can't be dealt with effectively?

If there is so much you are prevented from saying or doing, it does narrow down the options...

Dickens

growstuff

eazybee

Teaching is great.
It is the lack of sanctions that failed us.

Not just that, but the tick box mentality and lack of autonomy and flexibility to use methodology teachers know works.

Not just that, but the tick box mentality and lack of autonomy and flexibility to use methodology teachers know works.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why, so frequently, bullying appears to be something that can't be dealt with effectively?

If there is so much you are prevented from saying or doing, it does narrow down the options...

I don't think I really understand what you're implying. Teachers and schools aren't prevented from saying or doing anything to deal with bullying. I wasn't referring to behaviour management when I wrote about tick box mentality and lack of autonomy.

If a child (or a group of children) are bullying, there is nothing to stop a school from investigating and dealing with it as appropriate, even if that means (in the worst cases) exclusion from school. I suspect the real reason behaviour isn't always dealt with appropriately is lack of time during the school day for teachers to sit down and talk to children (and parents/carers) for hours to find out what has been happening.

What do you think teachers are prevented from saying or doing?

theworriedwell

Depends how toxic the home environment is. If we are using problems at home as an excuse those problems should be looked at. They might not be much in which case they aren't much of an excuse if they are extreme the child/bully needs protecting. Some kids end up dead as no one looks at what's going on in the home.

If the problems at home are really toxic, it might be necessary to involve social services.

Nevertheless, a toxic home environment is never an excuse to overlook bullying in schools. Pupils and teachers need to be told that bullying will never be tolerated within the school environment. Obviously, the school cannot control what goes on outside the school - in which case police involvement probably is justified. If a toxic home environment is used as an excuse, the school is giving out a very wrong message which sanctions bullying in certain circumstances.

growstuff

What do you think teachers are prevented from saying or doing?

I think schools are now having to deal with societal problems that would, once, have been dealt with by social services.

Investigating bullying is time consuming, it's not always easy to prove either. Teachers are either teaching or doing admin and they do not have the time that is required to deal with it.

If parents refuse to co-operate, there is little anyone can do.

Recently, (locally) a child was bullied at school - there had been other complaints of bullying by this particular child. After speaking to the Head, the teacher spoke to the bully and, during the conversation, accused him of bullying. Within a short space of time, the parents were at the school denying that their child was a bully, and demanding an apology from the teacher for the accusation, because they had "no proof". The 'outrage' then centred on the accusation, rather than the report and complaints of other children who had been bullied.

No excuses for bullying I was just illustrating that involving the police can be a positive for a child in a toxic home although that isn't the primary reason for involving them.

Dickens

growstuff

What do you think teachers are prevented from saying or doing?

I think schools are now having to deal with societal problems that would, once, have been dealt with by social services.

Investigating bullying is time consuming, it's not always easy to prove either. Teachers are either teaching or doing admin and they do not have the time that is required to deal with it.

If parents refuse to co-operate, there is little anyone can do.

Recently, (locally) a child was bullied at school - there had been other complaints of bullying by this particular child. After speaking to the Head, the teacher spoke to the bully and, during the conversation, accused him of bullying. Within a short space of time, the parents were at the school denying that their child was a bully, and demanding an apology from the teacher for the accusation, because they had "no proof". The 'outrage' then centred on the accusation, rather than the report and complaints of other children who had been bullied.

In cases such as that, schools need to stand firm. The child could have been excluded. Of course, the school would need to have acted professionally and watched its back at every stage. It's not unknown for outraged parents (and grandparents) to turn up at the school, so everybody needs to be prepared. The police need to be involved. If bullying parents discover they're not going to win, they'll think twice about being 'outraged' again. Bullies are usually cowards and back down if they meet their match. I disagree that there is little anyone can do, if parents refuse to co-operate.

theworriedwell

No excuses for bullying I was just illustrating that involving the police can be a positive for a child in a toxic home although that isn't the primary reason for involving them.

I think I misunderstood you. I agree that involving the police could in the long term be a positive for a child from a toxic home background.

Rather than calling in the police, an educational psychiatrist would be a more useful option, to speak to both families of the children involved. Difficult to arrange, and nearly always rejected.

I think good teachers know not to overreact where name calling is concerned. Especially at primary level, because not all bullying is intended to hurt or be deliberate.

For example, some young children may see their behaviour as teasing the other child, like in a game. It's not malicious and although unacceptable, it can be quickly corrected without coming down hard. Often just a kind, simple correction can be more effective than punishment. The important thing is to change that behaviour for the future.

However, the problem is that this sort of low level intimidation can have a wearing impact on the targeted child, a bit like a relentless dripping tap over a period of time. That's why it needs to be corrected as soon as the teacher realises it isn't just an inadvertent slip of the tongue. Of course that takes experience or sharp detection skills which not all teachers have at their finger tips.

Involving police at age 9 for name calling does sound disproportionate to the poor conduct.

eazybee

Rather than calling in the police, an educational psychiatrist would be a more useful option, to speak to both families of the children involved. Difficult to arrange, and nearly always rejected.

As ever, I think there is a problem with recruitment and funding of and for EPs - which has an impact on early intervention - when it is most effective.

Calling on the police does seem 'dramatic' but, as has been pointed out, if the child involved is from a home environment which is 'toxic' - which might even involve abuse, either mental or physical, it might ultimately be a good thing.

I know one can't generalise however when you read (and I don't mean in the tabloids) about teachers themselves being bullied - having chairs thrown at them, etc - by pupils, then it does make you wonder what sort of home environment they are living in.

The added problem with EPs is that the school closures during covid have drastically added to their heavy workload.

eazybee

Rather than calling in the police, an educational psychiatrist would be a more useful option, to speak to both families of the children involved. Difficult to arrange, and nearly always rejected.

Educational Psychologist?

If the child is demonstrating general behavioural problems then a referral would be the right way forward but for an incident like the one mentioned in the OP, if a one-off, surely it could be dealt with promptly by the school.
No need for police involvement either.

escaped

I think good teachers know not to overreact where name calling is concerned. Especially at primary level, because not all bullying is intended to hurt or be deliberate.

For example, some young children may see their behaviour as teasing the other child, like in a game. It's not malicious and although unacceptable, it can be quickly corrected without coming down hard. Often just a kind, simple correction can be more effective than punishment. The important thing is to change that behaviour for the future.

However, the problem is that this sort of low level intimidation can have a wearing impact on the targeted child, a bit like a relentless dripping tap over a period of time. That's why it needs to be corrected as soon as the teacher realises it isn't just an inadvertent slip of the tongue. Of course that takes experience or sharp detection skills which not all teachers have at their finger tips.

Involving police at age 9 for name calling does sound disproportionate to the poor conduct.

None of us knows the context to the OP. Of course, if this was just a 'one off' it's disproportionate to call the police (which I've already written). Nevertheless, if it's part of a wider pattern, it could be absolutely appropriate to call the police. I wasn't a primary school teacher. However, I was a secondary school teacher for many years and I witnessed a number of 11 year olds, whose bullying behaviour was already well-established but had been overlooked. The secondary school then had to deal with the results. Mercifully, it doesn't happen too often, but there are some young children whose behaviour is totally unacceptable and causes misery to many others. Jamie Bulger's murderers were only 10. Age and home background must never be used as an excuse.

Allira

eazybee

Rather than calling in the police, an educational psychiatrist would be a more useful option, to speak to both families of the children involved. Difficult to arrange, and nearly always rejected.

Educational Psychologist?

If the child is demonstrating general behavioural problems then a referral would be the right way forward but for an incident like the one mentioned in the OP, if a one-off, surely it could be dealt with promptly by the school.
No need for police involvement either.

We don't know this was a 'one off'.

eazybee

Rather than calling in the police, an educational psychiatrist would be a more useful option, to speak to both families of the children involved. Difficult to arrange, and nearly always rejected.

Why does the victim's family need an educational psychologist? They don't need behaviour modification. The victim and his/her family have done nothing wrong. It seems like victim-blaming, which happens far too often in bullying cases.

The Jamie Bulger murderers were pure evil, especially one of them.. They were born that way, and no amount of intervention or correction would have helped.

I would be very surprised if any primary teacher overlooked bullying behaviour, deliberately or otherwise, but sometimes inexperience, lack of training, or general weaknesses in that area don't help. (Just to clarify, it has nothing to do with longevity in the job, some of the best disciplinarians in the primary setting are the young, just out of college teachers. It's how experiences are used that counts,)

Allira used the word if twice, I'm guessing she was well aware of the fact that we don't know whether the "retard" jibe was a "one off". My 3rd paragraph also covers this.