Cheer up, Bridget, your lucky day is nigh!

J52

GrannyGravy13

J52 our Grammar Schools have limited places available at 13.

Many of today’s Grammar schools do, it wasn’t the case back when most children took the 11+ as a matter of course.

Yes, one of my friends joined at 13. In fact, although she "failed" the 11+, her parents paid for her to go to a Convent school where she took the exam at 13 and then came to the Grammar School.

growstuff

Allira

growstuff

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Until Labour abolished grammar schools and direct grant places at private schools, able working class children got the same opportunity for a selective academic education. Labour stopped that

And what about the not so able children (the majority) who missed out on grammar and direct grant schools?

It depends on the schools.

The secondary modern schools for boys and girls in the town where I grew up were excellent, far better than many comprehensive schools I have encountered in more recent years. They were encouraging and friends who went there achieved good results and consequently trained for good careers.

So presumably the children who went to the excellent secondary moderns didn't suffer when Labour took away their 'opportunity'. There's a bit of a contradiction here.

Thank goodness BIL stayed at his excellent sall secondary modern school where he took technical subjects, then did an engineering apprenticeship and eventually ran his own engineering company.

I think many children get lost in the comprehensive school system where the norm is often a couple of thousand pupils.

sall - small

GrannyGravy13

J52 our Grammar Schools have limited places available at 13.

The four Essex grammar schools do not take pupils at 13, except in exceptional circumstances.

Allira

growstuff

Allira

growstuff

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Until Labour abolished grammar schools and direct grant places at private schools, able working class children got the same opportunity for a selective academic education. Labour stopped that

And what about the not so able children (the majority) who missed out on grammar and direct grant schools?

It depends on the schools.

The secondary modern schools for boys and girls in the town where I grew up were excellent, far better than many comprehensive schools I have encountered in more recent years. They were encouraging and friends who went there achieved good results and consequently trained for good careers.

So presumably the children who went to the excellent secondary moderns didn't suffer when Labour took away their 'opportunity'. There's a bit of a contradiction here.

Thank goodness BIL stayed at his excellent sall secondary modern school where he took technical subjects, then did an engineering apprenticeship and eventually ran his own engineering company.

I think many children get lost in the comprehensive school system where the norm is often a couple of thousand pupils.

Comprehensives vary in size. A couple of thousand pupils would be a large school - it isn't the norm.

Can't you see the contradiction?

Someone in my grammar school year was transferred from a secondary modern at 13.

Sadly it was not the person I knew from my junior school, who had failed the 11 plus after mistakenly turning over 2 pages of the exam booklet at once, and thus missing a large section of questions.

I subsequently made a point of telling dds who were facing any exam, to make 100% sure they didn’t do the same!

escaped

^It does sit uneasily with me, that children's education should be subject to VAT^
Of course, and I'm guessing that that statement could be uttered even by many Labour supporting people because this policy destroys the fundamental concept that there should be no taxation on education.

However, I've moved on from all the theory and ideals stuff because my concern now is that there will be little gain anyway. I honestly can't see 93% of our children suddenly receiving a greatly improved education on the small amount generated. That was my thinking yesterday when wondering what big difference could be instantly apparent when that windfall, £500,000,000, lands on Bridget Phillipson's desk tomorrow. Even ensuring that every child is seen to have the necessary stationery at school next week would be a start!

If more teachers are to be trained then that will take 4 years - five or more if np places are available.
I suppose some people could be encouraged to return to teaching or some people in industry could be persuaded to take a PGCE course.

Perhaps conditions would need to be improved first to encourage people to go into teaching.

growstuff

Allira

growstuff

Allira

growstuff

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Until Labour abolished grammar schools and direct grant places at private schools, able working class children got the same opportunity for a selective academic education. Labour stopped that

And what about the not so able children (the majority) who missed out on grammar and direct grant schools?

It depends on the schools.

The secondary modern schools for boys and girls in the town where I grew up were excellent, far better than many comprehensive schools I have encountered in more recent years. They were encouraging and friends who went there achieved good results and consequently trained for good careers.

So presumably the children who went to the excellent secondary moderns didn't suffer when Labour took away their 'opportunity'. There's a bit of a contradiction here.

Thank goodness BIL stayed at his excellent sall secondary modern school where he took technical subjects, then did an engineering apprenticeship and eventually ran his own engineering company.

I think many children get lost in the comprehensive school system where the norm is often a couple of thousand pupils.

Comprehensives vary in size. A couple of thousand pupils would be a large school - it isn't the norm.

Can't you see the contradiction?

Can't you see the contradiction?
No.

Comparison, not contradiction.

Comprehensive schools here have 1,600 - 1,800 pupils, one has well over 2,000.
The secondary modern schools and grammar schools I remember about 400 - 500 pupils.

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

J52 our Grammar Schools have limited places available at 13.

The four Essex grammar schools do not take pupils at 13, except in exceptional circumstances.

Westcliff High School for girls definitely takes in at 13, I know of several who have entered at this age.

No exceptional circumstances, one girl lived 29.7 miles from the school, she was unhappy at her comprehensive so her parents tried their luck and she was accepted.

So do I understand correctly, that if we were still in the EU, the rules would prevent the removal of the tax break for private schools.

So Brexit, which I didn’t vote for, has benefited Labour.

"The Principal VAT Directive 2006/112/EC (PVD) makes it mandatory for EU Member States to implement certain VAT exemptions into domestic law, such as “the provision of children’s or young people’s education, school or university education, vocational training or retraining, including the supply of services and of goods closely related thereto"

Can’t find any reference on this thread to the appeal being lodged by private schools against the imposition of VAT. So best wait for the judgement before spending the money is my opinion.

I just don't think we can go back and make valid comparisons with what schools were like when we experienced them in the past. And thats because of resourcing issues.

In the 60's Allira you are quite right many Sec Mods had decent class sizes and often very good technical courses that led onto apprenticeships, nursing and so on.

I know as my mum was a Sec Mod teacher all those years and I failed my 11+ and went to a Technical High School - incredibly well resourced as were the new comprehensives starting to be set up at that time.

In 1969 in Hull all the then grammar schools converted into comprehensives except for the private one and they were well resourced with subject streaming that meant academic children were still well catered for as well as technical studies.



Yes school sizes have increased. (current average, google tells us, is just over 1.000 pupils)

I'm not sure per se this is a bad thing - look at the largest school in the country, Beal High school which has an excellent academic record but also has
"Included on the Beal roll is the Beacon Communication School for students with a range of social communication difficulties including Autism and Asperger’s syndrome. This is heavily oversubscribed and has developed a post 16 provision. Many of the students are integrated into the wider school community for academic and social experiences throughout the week."

But Ds and DiL chose th local school with the less academic but cosier smaller atmosphere for DGS1.

Beal High School
bealhighschool.co.uk/about-us/#:~:text=Welcome%20to%20Beal%20High%20School&text=Beal%20is%20a%20mixed%2C%20community,800%20in%20the%20Sixth%20Form.

Mollygo

So do I understand correctly, that if we were still in the EU, the rules would prevent the removal of the tax break for private schools.

So Brexit, which I didn’t vote for, has benefited Labour.

Correct.
Education is exempt under EU rules.

However, there is every likelihood that Britain, might have been made an exception on this issue. Our private school system is nothing like Europeans refer to as "private" schools anyway.

I recall when GN first discussed it huge numbers of closures in private schools were predicted. This hasn't happened.

"The Daily Telegraph, which opposes the policy, has reported nine private schools closing since May which have cited the change. However, on the decade-long average, about seven schools a month would be expected to close anyway"

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/26/no-rise-private-school-closures-england-since-labour-vat-proposal-data#:~:text=The%20Daily%20Telegraph%2C%20which%20opposes,be%20expected%20to%20close%20anyway.

I cant find any figures of any drop in enrolment for this upcoming term when the VAT is added.

Sago

Amongst our daughters circle of friends there are a number that have shelved the idea of a public/private school as it is now not affordable, the VAT is also on school transport and meals.
Other friends have decided to use state primary schools until age 11.

I think Labour should hold any celebration until they know what the extra burden will cost them in the state sector.

Food is normally VAT free.
To charge VAT on school meals is disgraceful in my opinion.
Most, if not all, other countries do not tax any educational provision. The UK will be one of, if not the only country taxing education.
This tax is not being brought in to improve education generally, it’s simply the politics of envy.

Our boys went to a Welsh Medium School in St.Asaph. It was 20 miles from our home, they caught a coach at 7.30 a.m. in town (Conwy) The coach started to pick up other students in Penmaenwar until Aberegele. At the time it was the best Welsh Medium School in Wales.

ECHR and Human Rights Act 1998 apply. It is hilarious that GN has prior knowledge of the outcome of the legal challenge which has yet to be decided or even heard!!

Mollygo

So do I understand correctly, that if we were still in the EU, the rules would prevent the removal of the tax break for private schools.

So Brexit, which I didn’t vote for, has benefited Labour.

No that is incorrect.

Educational provision is not taxed across the EU.
Therefore it seems unlikely that this tax would have been introduced if we were still in the EU.

petal53 this tax might not go ahead. It’s still up in the air along with the rest of government ….. Lord Pannick has taken on the appeal at a staggering hourly rate.

petal53

Sago

Amongst our daughters circle of friends there are a number that have shelved the idea of a public/private school as it is now not affordable, the VAT is also on school transport and meals.
Other friends have decided to use state primary schools until age 11.

I think Labour should hold any celebration until they know what the extra burden will cost them in the state sector.

Food is normally VAT free.
To charge VAT on school meals is disgraceful in my opinion.
Most, if not all, other countries do not tax any educational provision. The UK will be one of, if not the only country taxing education.
This tax is not being brought in to improve education generally, it’s simply the politics of envy.

Wrong.

Whilst VAT will have to be charged on the fees, the school will be able to recover the VAT incurred on catering

(there are other "recoverable" detailed for schools)

petal53

Sago

Amongst our daughters circle of friends there are a number that have shelved the idea of a public/private school as it is now not affordable, the VAT is also on school transport and meals.
Other friends have decided to use state primary schools until age 11.

I think Labour should hold any celebration until they know what the extra burden will cost them in the state sector.

Food is normally VAT free.
To charge VAT on school meals is disgraceful in my opinion.
Most, if not all, other countries do not tax any educational provision. The UK will be one of, if not the only country taxing education.
This tax is not being brought in to improve education generally, it’s simply the politics of envy.

That is also incorrect. The provision of exempt for vat purposes throughout Europe. The provision of a supply of services by a profit making company (which includes the provision of education) is a supply for tax purposes, and therefore comes under the scope of vat.

Whitewavemark2

Mollygo

So do I understand correctly, that if we were still in the EU, the rules would prevent the removal of the tax break for private schools.

So Brexit, which I didn’t vote for, has benefited Labour.

No that is incorrect.

"The Principal VAT Directive 2006/112/EC (PVD) makes it mandatory for EU Member States to implement certain VAT exemptions into domestic law, such as “the provision of children’s or young people’s education, school or university education, vocational training or retraining, including the supply of services and of goods closely related thereto"

So how would you interpret that EU Directive?