Democracy under threat

I think you assume too much Galaxy. Wherever our alliances politically, we all have nuanced opinions, and more insight than you give credit to.

possibly. There was however quite a lot of what a great candidate she was, and she was just awful.

Doodledog

I don't think it is remotely Trumpian to say that the Brexit campaign was based on lies and spin.

If it is, under what circumstances is it ok by you to call out things like the NHS bus, and the sunlit uplands into which we were supposed to be heading?

I suppose we all think that about the “side” we didnt vote for. I think the remainer side lied too.

I cant recall any lies from the remainer side BevSec.

I do recall long online discussions pointing out the situation that N Ireland would be left in, and so many lies it could all be sorted out by Brexteers, and what a mess that left us I for years as Teresa May tried to find a way round it whilst relying on the DUP for a majority, what a mess.

I think, *Wyllow, that leave voters will point to the leaflet sent out by the government which predicted instant financial disaster if the vote went in favour of leaving the EU as a lie told by the remain side

.Also they will claim that WW3 was predicted (it wasn’t). Though in view of the current geopolitical situation I rather think that their argument is decidedly weak.

Tbf there were some lies by Cameron and Osborne during the referendum about us being unsafe if out of the EU.Cameron even claimed that if it was a yes vote to Brexit, then the very next day an emergency economic plan would have to be put in place.There are always lies by ‘the other side’.

I was a Remain voter btw and the lie by Osborne was well documented.

WellsRose

Galaxy

I think you will find that it was democracy that led to Trumps victory, it is always awful when people wont vote the way you want them to isnt it.

I thought the OP was talking about Musk. He isn't elected for anything.

Neither was Lord Ali, look what influence he had! Pot kettle black on this thread. All the anti Trump messages, this is a global forum, so many Trump voters may read your outpouring, do you think they'll care, I don't.
Our democracy is under threat from this Gov. They've already gone against article 10 of the HRA. "Freedom of speech with no interference from Governments." The police break it every day, threatening independant journalists, who won't tow the Government line.
Threatening to bring in blasphemy laws, so we cannot criticise a certain ideology.
Musk is no threat to us, he can use his free speech as allowed by his constitution. No one has to listen, I do , goes in one ear out of the other. People in this country have much more to be concerned about. This Government has chosen their own suspect advisors. Lord Ali for starters.
Our threats to Democracy lie much closer to home as far as I can see.

keepingquiet

Coming in a bit late here but doesn't the media also have something to answer for here?

TV made Trump and Twitter made Musk- maybe it is those who control the media we should be looking at most?

Spot on. The media and all that that entails have an awful lot to answer to 😡

petra

keepingquiet

Coming in a bit late here but doesn't the media also have something to answer for here?

TV made Trump and Twitter made Musk- maybe it is those who control the media we should be looking at most?

Spot on. The media and all that that entails have an awful lot to answer to 😡

Agreed. I sometimes wonder how the journalists on some of these media sites live with their consciences when they know the damage the misinformation causes.

Oreo

I was a Remain voter btw and the lie by Osborne was well documented.

I am not saying that it wasn't.

I was trying to think of examples of 'lies' told by the remain side. That was the one which was constantly quoted to us. That, and WW3 (which actually wasn't predicted, and what price NATO now?)

MaizieD

Oreo

I was a Remain voter btw and the lie by Osborne was well documented.

I am not saying that it wasn't.

I was trying to think of examples of 'lies' told by the remain side. That was the one which was constantly quoted to us. That, and WW3 (which actually wasn't predicted, and what price NATO now?)

The analysis in this document comes to a clear central conclusion, a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000.

Osborne said

With exactly one month to go to the referendum, the British people must ask themselves this question, can we knowingly vote for a recession? Because thats what the evidence shows we will get if we vote to leave the EU.

Fortunately these scare tactics didnt work, and apparently they were based on nothing very much.

BevSec

Doodledog

I don't think it is remotely Trumpian to say that the Brexit campaign was based on lies and spin.

If it is, under what circumstances is it ok by you to call out things like the NHS bus, and the sunlit uplands into which we were supposed to be heading?

I suppose we all think that about the “side” we didnt vote for. I think the remainer side lied too.

Ok, can you tell us any lies told by the 'remain' side, as I can't think of any?

Doodledog

BevSec

Doodledog

I don't think it is remotely Trumpian to say that the Brexit campaign was based on lies and spin.

If it is, under what circumstances is it ok by you to call out things like the NHS bus, and the sunlit uplands into which we were supposed to be heading?

I suppose we all think that about the “side” we didnt vote for. I think the remainer side lied too.

Ok, can you tell us any lies told by the 'remain' side, as I can't think of any?

Please see above

The lies from the Brexit side didn’t stop at the referendum though, they continued right up to the present.

Doodledog

BevSec

Doodledog

I don't think it is remotely Trumpian to say that the Brexit campaign was based on lies and spin.

If it is, under what circumstances is it ok by you to call out things like the NHS bus, and the sunlit uplands into which we were supposed to be heading?

I suppose we all think that about the “side” we didnt vote for. I think the remainer side lied too.

Ok, can you tell us any lies told by the 'remain' side, as I can't think of any?

Ok, can you tell us any lies told by the 'remain' side, as I can't think of any?

“The EU’s current institutions have serious failings and are undemocratic”
(Leave)

“The EU has a better level of democratic scrutiny than any other international body: the UN, NATO, WTO, IMF, World Bank etc.”
(Remain)

Discussions about democracy are essentially about yardsticks. Depending on what you look at, and compare against, you will get different answers. And in that sense, both arguments set out above are correct.

The underlying reason for this is that people don’t agree on what ‘democracy’ is.

(source: FULL FACT)

This is what it boils down to. As FULL FACT points out:

‘Democracy’ means different things to different people

It was difficult for Remain to promote an actual lie because it could be fact-checked as we were already a member of the EU.

IMO, what Remain failed to do is (a) understand that Democracy meant different things to different people and (b) in the same vein, did not understand that membership of the EU also meant different things to different people.

I once got jumped on for saying this, but I'll risk it - the apparent benefits and advantages of EU membership to people living in the economically-deprived areas of the UK would be markedly different to those in the wealthiest areas, like Surrey or Sussex. Certainly on a superficial level.

I don't think Remain lied, I think it failed to understand that the UK is a very divided and unequal society, and therefore could not possibly think with 'one mind' - on any matter, let alone the EU.

It really is worth reading further...

fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-democracy/

Yes I agree with that. I also think Remain failed to see that immigration meant different things to different parts of society. To be fair they are still failing to see that.

Galaxy

Yes I agree with that. I also think Remain failed to see that immigration meant different things to different parts of society. To be fair they are still failing to see that.

The extremes of both sides are equally uncompromising.

To be fair they are still failing to see that.

It's complex though.

Because some of those areas with a dense population of immigrants voted to Remain, whilst the more affluent South where contact with an immigrant (from anywhere) might be limited, voted to Leave.

What Remain failed to do was understand the complex psyche of the British / English citizen, and reduce the Leave/Remain issue to a simple equation.

Agreed, Dickens that vague proclamations can't be nailed down as lies, but things like 'the NHS will have £350m a week if we leave' are most definitely lies.

'The UK will fall into recession' is not a lie, as it is open ended. We still might. If we do, whether we would have done if not for Brexit is open to debate (I have no idea), and if we don't, whether that is because we left the EU is also unclear.

(sorry - I missed your comment about this, BevSec).

Lies are deliberately told untruths. Not mistakes, or well-intentioned errors. Sometimes they are lies by omission and sometimes deliberate falsehoods. Sometimes things are true when they are stated, but untrue later, so are not lies but out of date statements.

I remember booking an engineer to fit Sky TV back in the day. My son was about seven, and excited at the thought of a football channel, so had invited his friends round. When the engineer arrived there were problems and he couldn't fit the dish that day. My son was very disappointed and I felt terrible, but I hadn't lied to him, had I?

Doodledog

Agreed, Dickens that vague proclamations can't be nailed down as lies, but things like 'the NHS will have £350m a week if we leave' are most definitely lies.

'The UK will fall into recession' is not a lie, as it is open ended. We still might. If we do, whether we would have done if not for Brexit is open to debate (I have no idea), and if we don't, whether that is because we left the EU is also unclear.

(sorry - I missed your comment about this, BevSec).

Lies are deliberately told untruths. Not mistakes, or well-intentioned errors. Sometimes they are lies by omission and sometimes deliberate falsehoods. Sometimes things are true when they are stated, but untrue later, so are not lies but out of date statements.

I remember booking an engineer to fit Sky TV back in the day. My son was about seven, and excited at the thought of a football channel, so had invited his friends round. When the engineer arrived there were problems and he couldn't fit the dish that day. My son was very disappointed and I felt terrible, but I hadn't lied to him, had I?

I remember booking an engineer to fit Sky TV back in the day. My son was about seven, and excited at the thought of a football channel, so had invited his friends round. When the engineer arrived there were problems and he couldn't fit the dish that day. My son was very disappointed and I felt terrible, but I hadn't lied to him, had I?

An excellent analogy.

Your son probably failed to appreciate the technical / engineering difficulties and could have blamed you, but you were not lying because you didn't anticipate the immediate and unknowable problem at the time.

Lies are deliberately told untruths.

Yes. And they can be fact-checked. When they are though, and the truth / fact is revealed, it is often completely ignored. Some posters dive onto these threads, make a statement that is proved to be a lie, and they never return to acknowledge it. Then, what often happens is that another poster will say, "well, whatabout xxx..." And politicians get away with it like this, time and time again. Because we allow it. Because we are holding each other to account instead of them. And I think that is what they rely on.

I think if as a society you embrace lies (not you personally!) then it is very hard to complain when people posts lies on social media. I am afraid along with 'far right' the word 'misinformation' is just white noise to be now.

Galaxy

I think if as a society you embrace lies (not you personally!) then it is very hard to complain when people posts lies on social media. I am afraid along with 'far right' the word 'misinformation' is just white noise to be now.

So how can the Far Right (or misinformation) be discussed if every time someone mentions them they are dismissed?

I'm not sure of your point, really. What does 'society embracing lies' involve in real terms? Yes, some people believe things that I don't, and I will believe things that others don't. In both cases some of those things will be lies and others not. Where does 'society' come in here?

At times your posts read like a deliberate attempt to show yourself as cynical in ways that the rest of us can't aspire to.

Galaxy

I think if as a society you embrace lies (not you personally!) then it is very hard to complain when people posts lies on social media. I am afraid along with 'far right' the word 'misinformation' is just white noise to be now.

But don't you think there is a 'far Right', and a 'far Left'?

... in terms of veering away from the centre-ground of each ideology?

Well of course you can discuss them but I dont see how anyone can be expected to take it seriously. If you have national broadcasters saying male rapists are women,(the easiest example but not the only one) supported by most political parties, how on earth can they talk about misinformation with a straight face. It just doesnt work.
It is incredibly dangerous that people have no faith in institutions but it is where a lot of people are.