Democracy under threat

In the words of Winston Churchill

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…

And there are times when the results are not what you would want. I think to then say that is not democracy but is lies and spin is a very interesting path to tread. It is certainly an approach Trump would take.

I don't think it is remotely Trumpian to say that the Brexit campaign was based on lies and spin.

If it is, under what circumstances is it ok by you to call out things like the NHS bus, and the sunlit uplands into which we were supposed to be heading?

I agree with you about Brexit, but Brexit was not a general election.

I am not going to dig up past disasters and replay them, but the whole referendum from how it was devised to how it was run was a disaster waiting to happen and it did.

BlueBelle

Having seen Musks father on TV this morning I ve never seen a nastier more objectionable man with such horrendous views including thinking Tommy Robinson should be out and leading the world
Listening to him you could really see where Hitler emerged from

I know there must be some lovely white South Africans (I do know one) but I think many are racist bigots.
The worst racist bile I ever heard was from an Afrikaaner many years ago in my own house. I felt as if I needed to burn white sage afterwards.

Is that the same Musk senior who fathered a child by his stepdaughter? He did then marry her, but.....

Galaxy

And there are times when the results are not what you would want. I think to then say that is not democracy but is lies and spin is a very interesting path to tread. It is certainly an approach Trump would take.

Galaxy

And there are times when the results are not what you would want...

The way you've phrased that makes it sound almost like people are simply disagreeing over the results of, for example, a football match.

It's about more than simply not 'getting the results you want'.

If there are obvious signs or indications that a 'result' has been achieved by lies, misinformation, deception, then surely that result is open to question?

We know politics is a dirty game and we even accept a certain level of emotional manipulation by our politicians, but deliberate manipulation of facts, or downright lies to achieve a political outcome, surely can't be dismissed as, "oh well, that's democracy". It isn't.

And this applies to both Right and Left. IMO, Tony Blair manipulated the facts for the war in Iraq. And look where that has landed us.

Precisely, Dickens. I’m heartily sick of being told why I say what I say or think what I think. It’s just another way of trying to silence people.

It was in reference to Trump winning, that he only won because he lied. The Democrats lies were on an epic scale, if Harris had won the trump supporters would have been saying it wasnt a legitimate result, how is that any different. He didnt win because he lied, he won because people preferred him to the alternative.

The way you've phrased that makes it sound almost like people are simply disagreeing over the results of, for example, a football match.

I think the sporting analogy is quite appropriate, Dickens. Most people don't mind their team losing in a fair contest, but are rightly upset if the opposition doesn't play by the rules. That's nothing to do with it being the 'wrong result', it's about being denied a possible win because the other side cheated.

Though I'm sure Galaxy must be aware of this view?

Doodledog

Precisely, Dickens. I’m heartily sick of being told why I say what I say or think what I think. It’s just another way of trying to silence people.

It’s just another way of trying to silence people.

It's really little more than a variation on the riposte used to the Remain "Loser" - "you lost, get over it" ...

... or "end of".

It doesn't matter if during the race runners are trip-wired or elbowed out of the way, what matters is crossing the finish-line, eh?

Who cares how you got there!

I know exactly what Galaxy means, with every GE there are those very put out, me included over the 14 years the Conservatives were in power, but most of us I hope realised that our elections are fair and above board just as the US ones are.Fibs, misinformation broken or false promises come into it from all political parties and best not kid ourselves about that, but at the end of the day the voters sift through it all and vote the way they think and hope will be best.
It’s only the tribal few, relatively ,that moan it isn’t fair.

Trump had massive support in the US even though he had lost the previous election and had criminal charges brought against him.I thought it was obvious from the start that he would win, easily against Biden and less easily against Harris.

I must be missing something. I thought this thread was about the unelected Musk, which is about the democratic process, but is not about how Trump came to power.

I utterly disagree with your interpretation of the results whether it was two Trump wins or the Brexit win, (I voted remain by the way) , I think sections of society have been consistent in what they want.

Oreo

I know exactly what Galaxy means, with every GE there are those very put out, me included over the 14 years the Conservatives were in power, but most of us I hope realised that our elections are fair and above board just as the US ones are.Fibs, misinformation broken or false promises come into it from all political parties and best not kid ourselves about that, but at the end of the day the voters sift through it all and vote the way they think and hope will be best.
It’s only the tribal few, relatively ,that moan it isn’t fair.

Yes, I agree (and IMO your comment about the tribal few has been more than played out on this board since the GE). But that's not the same thing at all as effectively removing the right to call out lies, so long as people are able to back up what they say (ie not just make constant unfounded accusations of lying because they have nothing concrete to say), and that they can (and are willing to) back it up when questioned, then we all have a right to say what we like.

If there is one thing that presses my buttons it is being told why I am saying what I'm saying - particularly if it comes laden with thinly-veiled accusations of mendacity. Pick holes in what I say, by all means. I may change my mind, or continue to disagree, but don't tell me why I am saying it.

I utterly disagree with your interpretation of the results whether it was two Trump wins or the Brexit win, (I voted remain by the way) , I think sections of society have been consistent in what they want.
Whose interpretation? If this refers to my point about the promises on the bus, what I said doesn't contradict the point that many people have been consistent in what they want, does it? I still think the claims on the bus, along with the 'sunlit uplands' were lies.

I agree that constantly telling people that they are too dim to know what they want is misguided. Both because it is guaranteed to alienate people and because it isn't true. Again, that doesn't contradict my assertion that there was never going to be an extra £350m a week going into the NHS after Brexit.

I'm not saying that Trump won because of lies. I am saying that assuming that anyone criticising anything is doing so because the results are not as they would have preferred is as bad as telling people that they are too stupid to know what they are voting for.

Galaxy

I utterly disagree with your interpretation of the results whether it was two Trump wins or the Brexit win, (I voted remain by the way) , I think sections of society have been consistent in what they want.

Of course you would, Galaxy.

You'd much prefer to believe that we disagree with the results because they were voted for by stupid people.

Doodledog

Oreo

I know exactly what Galaxy means, with every GE there are those very put out, me included over the 14 years the Conservatives were in power, but most of us I hope realised that our elections are fair and above board just as the US ones are.Fibs, misinformation broken or false promises come into it from all political parties and best not kid ourselves about that, but at the end of the day the voters sift through it all and vote the way they think and hope will be best.
It’s only the tribal few, relatively ,that moan it isn’t fair.

Yes, I agree (and IMO your comment about the tribal few has been more than played out on this board since the GE). But that's not the same thing at all as effectively removing the right to call out lies, so long as people are able to back up what they say (ie not just make constant unfounded accusations of lying because they have nothing concrete to say), and that they can (and are willing to) back it up when questioned, then we all have a right to say what we like.

If there is one thing that presses my buttons it is being told why I am saying what I'm saying - particularly if it comes laden with thinly-veiled accusations of mendacity. Pick holes in what I say, by all means. I may change my mind, or continue to disagree, but don't tell me why I am saying it.

I utterly disagree with your interpretation of the results whether it was two Trump wins or the Brexit win, (I voted remain by the way) , I think sections of society have been consistent in what they want.
Whose interpretation? If this refers to my point about the promises on the bus, what I said doesn't contradict the point that many people have been consistent in what they want, does it? I still think the claims on the bus, along with the 'sunlit uplands' were lies.

I agree that constantly telling people that they are too dim to know what they want is misguided. Both because it is guaranteed to alienate people and because it isn't true. Again, that doesn't contradict my assertion that there was never going to be an extra £350m a week going into the NHS after Brexit.

I'm not saying that Trump won because of lies. I am saying that assuming that anyone criticising anything is doing so because the results are not as they would have preferred is as bad as telling people that they are too stupid to know what they are voting for.

Just whaaaaat?!
Who’s telling you what to say? Or told you what you’re saying?Did I even * mention* you? Why would you think I mean you?
The ‘thinly veiled accusations of mendacity’ I have no idea what you’re on about or why my above post has pressed your buttons.
Up to you if you don’t agree with DT winning, it’s democracy but you don’t have to like it.It’s quite another thing to believe it’s all the lies he tells that have got him to the White House yet again, when it’s obvious that his fan base were going to vote for him regardless.
Just as here, it wouldn’t have mattered how many porkies the Conservatives told the electorate, the voters were going to vote for any party bar them.

But the lies on the bus were no different to Biden is fine, there are no issues with son of Biden, men can be women, etc etc. I feel as if the only time lies and misinformation are discussed are when they are from the 'right'. It makes it very hard for me to trust these 'standards' of truthfulness (I am saying this in a general way, not aimed at any particular poster).
So I would say many who voted for the lies on the bus would see the left as having lied to them for a long time. They will probably say that about the Tories now too.

Just whaaaaat?!
Maybe just read what I say instead of just reacting for once?
Who’s telling you what to say? Or told you what you’re saying?Did I even * mention* you? Why would you think I mean you?
I didn't. I did read what you wrote, and therefore wasn't arguing with you. In fact I was agreeing with you but not with Galaxy
The ‘thinly veiled accusations of mendacity’ I have no idea what you’re on about or why my above post has pressed your buttons.
I was explaining what Galaxy had said that had pressed my buttons. It's not all about you!
Up to you if you don’t agree with DT winning, it’s democracy but you don’t have to like it.It’s quite another thing to believe it’s all the lies he tells that have got him to the White House yet again, when it’s obvious that his fan base were going to vote for him regardless.
I refer you to my post, where I spelt out that I didn't say that Trump won because of lies. I agree that we won, whether or not I like that fact. I actually said that, so it is blindingly obvious that you didn't bother to read my post, but decided for me what I think.
Just as here, it wouldn’t have mattered how many porkies the Conservatives told the electorate, the voters were going to vote for any party bar them.
Possibly. I can't speak for other people.

Galaxy

But the lies on the bus were no different to Biden is fine, there are no issues with son of Biden, men can be women, etc etc. I feel as if the only time lies and misinformation are discussed are when they are from the 'right'. It makes it very hard for me to trust these 'standards' of truthfulness (I am saying this in a general way, not aimed at any particular poster).
So I would say many who voted for the lies on the bus would see the left as having lied to them for a long time. They will probably say that about the Tories now too.

Maybe. Again, I am not presuming to decide why other people think as they do.

I agree that the lies on the bus and 'Biden was fine' weren't true, and agree absolutely about the 'men can be women' thing, but I apply my thoughts about that across the board. I don't think that accusations of lying are only discussed if they are from the right - look at how many people are accusing the government of lying now, and pretending that they are being even-handed when they never raised a peep when the Tories were found guilty in court of lying about parties and so on. Bias is bias, whichever side it's from.

Whether those who voted for Brexit think that the left has lied to them doesn't alter the fact that the bus had lies on it. In fact whether the left did (objectively) lie tho them won't alter that. Don't you think that denying that is Trumpian?

Coming in a bit late here but doesn't the media also have something to answer for here?

TV made Trump and Twitter made Musk- maybe it is those who control the media we should be looking at most?

Doodledog what a long muddled post from you, hard to make anything of it, perhaps be clearer in future as to who and what you’re addressing.I would further recommend that you don’t take things so personally.

keepingquiet

Coming in a bit late here but doesn't the media also have something to answer for here?

TV made Trump and Twitter made Musk- maybe it is those who control the media we should be looking at most?

Zuckerberg's latest pronouncement

www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/07/meta-facebook-instagram-threads-mark-zuckerberg-remove-fact-checkers-recommend-political-content

I dont think I am denying it Doodledog, I think I am saying it wasnt why Brexit won and it wasnt why Trump won. I am coming to the conclusion that there is a considerable chance that Farage will be PM in the future. If that happens it wont be because of any lies he may or may not tell.
I also dont believe that many people on here would be complaining about lies if Harris had won.