Democracy under threat

Yes I think there is a far right, I dont think it includes JkRowling, over 50 % of Americans or to be honest people who vote Reform.

Yes, I can see what you mean there. As you know, I agree with you that men can't be women; but there are those who disagree. Are you saying that only what we believe is 'truth'?

Galaxy

Yes I think there is a far right, I dont think it includes JkRowling, over 50 % of Americans or to be honest people who vote Reform.

Sorry - my previous reply was to your previous post.

I don't believe that the people you mention are (necessarily) far right either, but some of the 50% of Americans and some Reform voters will be.

I don't think that we can stop discussing the far right because people have different ideas about what it means. Personally, I think that a lot of talk about left and right (near mind 'far' versions of either) is wide of the mark, but that's by the way.

From my ow experience of people who voted to leave the vast majority took no notice what’s so ever of what the government and the media were saying.
Their vote to leave was based on their own ( of families) personal experience.
When 10 counties joined the EU in 2004 my town ( Southend) had big influx of migrants.
2 friends lost shopfitting business’s to cheap Labour. That didn’t work out well for the companies employing the cheap Labour. Their customer weren’t impressed with standard of work.
Another friend had a pub on the seafront. He was frequently threatened by Eastern Europeans for protection money.
Shops were beyond angry at the shop lifting and being told by the police that theirwas nothing they could do.
Hair dressers had women coming in and then refusing to pay.
Then there was the housing fiasco ( told by a housing officer friend) women would arrive at the council office with several young children claiming they were her own. No paperwork to prove otherwise.

petra

From my ow experience of people who voted to leave the vast majority took no notice what’s so ever of what the government and the media were saying.
Their vote to leave was based on their own ( of families) personal experience.
When 10 counties joined the EU in 2004 my town ( Southend) had big influx of migrants.
2 friends lost shopfitting business’s to cheap Labour. That didn’t work out well for the companies employing the cheap Labour. Their customer weren’t impressed with standard of work.
Another friend had a pub on the seafront. He was frequently threatened by Eastern Europeans for protection money.
Shops were beyond angry at the shop lifting and being told by the police that theirwas nothing they could do.
Hair dressers had women coming in and then refusing to pay.
Then there was the housing fiasco ( told by a housing officer friend) women would arrive at the council office with several young children claiming they were her own. No paperwork to prove otherwise.

I think you are absolutely right when you say that people who voted to leave took absolutely no notice of any argument to stay or leave, I knew that I would vote to leave regardless.

KateW19

No it’s absolutely correct that the lower education attainment, the more likely a person would vote for far right groups, and likewise higher ed attainment vote left. One of the reasons right wing groups ban books in schools

What a ridiculous and untrue statement.
It is the left who are banning books, don't echo their ideology, may upset students etc. . Written by a London based teacher in the Guardian in 2017. So left wing ideology has been with us for a long time in our schools. "The 1996 Education Act was to present different political beliefs and to not promote partisan political views. Yet my shool is an echo chamber for left wing views of its staff and students parents. Views that fall outside of the accepted left liberal spectrum get short shrift in my staffroom".
Cannot stand the smug dictat of writing off people who have not obtained a University degree.
It's the left who are extremely violent on our streets, especially if someone disagrees with their ideology.

It's the left who are extremely violent on our streets

Er, no

The people I know who voted leave were across the social profile but right leaning, their logic was migration/xenophobia and sovereignty.
They did not consider the practical or economic consequences, of leaving.

I think the OP was writing from an American perspective, where the Christian right certainly has an influence amongst certain demographics, that isn't really the case here, although there are schools of religious persuasions who have been known to peddle certain teachings that would not be in accordance with the general ethos of what is acceptable. Having said that she was very selective in castigating the right, the left have also had an undue influence especially around culture wars and in particular how natal girls and women have been impacted in sports and having their private spaces removed, changing rooms etc. and penalised for speaking out against all of that. Over here, like there, we've seen a shutting down of debate and no platforming in our universities, due to sensitivities around issues that cannot be debated, sometimes incurring a violent backlash. Both left and right wing factions can resort to violence if thwarted in their objectives. To expect never to be offended or not to be able to stand ground and fight an issue with debates rather than resorting to violence shows both sides up imo The left and the right both employ regressive and aggressive tactics when opposed as if their beliefs should be enshrined, we've seen it over and over again recently. Once people embrace the extremes of the political spectrum whether it be on the right or the left, there isn't much to choose between them. They inhabit a world of tunnel vision and echo chambers and cease to engage with the mainstream.

I may want to marry you Terribull

Hear hear Terribull very well put.

Galaxy

I may want to marry you Terribull

😁
Sorry, she's spoken for!

I agree to a point, Terribull. I don’t like the ‘they are all stupid’ narrative either. But sorry, Galaxy - it’s nothing personal I promise - that is exactly what I’m seeing from you.

Many people other than you can see things from more than one perspective. I know I try to - even if only because it is vital to see the other ‘side’ if I am to argue against it effectively 😀. Sometimes that does temper my own views, and sometimes it doesn’t, but I do recognise that we all have opinions and they don’t have to be the same.

I may be misjudging your posts, but it’s coming across as though you think everyone else (except maybe Terribull ) is blinkered.

Galaxy

I may want to marry you Terribull

I want to have her babies😁

To get back to the OP, I think democracy is actually under threat and has been for some time. Quite insidious and quite subtle but the undermining of freedoms is there in both your country and mine. Throwing around unpleasant accusations of hard right, racist, extreme left, communist etc is part of the problem , just trying to shut people up and stop them from speaking.

The problem is that those with extreme views, Farage is a good example, gets media attention far exceeding his importance which invites others to speak out in support. Tommy Robinson not so much because his views promote violence which negate his opinions.
Johnson and the Brexit campaign, a flamboyant character promoting a new future, never mind it being based on dreams, inspired many to vote for him. The remain campaign with “more of the same” just was not newsworthy.
Trump, always in the news for his court appearances or extreme pronouncements in the end it got him elected, he’s a crook for sure but the obviously biased legal campaign against him probably gained more votes than it lost.

Thats democracy wether you agree depends in which side you support.

No I dont think everyone is blinkered doodledog, I would say the last few years mean I dont trust institutions in any way, I am aware that is possibly dangerous, but i dont see what else people are supposed to do when said institutions appear to have lost their mind. Of course people are going to look elsewhere for information, news, etc. It is almost impossible for me to trust narratives around for example misinformation, misogyny, etc when there has been no or very little challenging of misinformation etc from the mainstream.

Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of distrust/ cynicism in fact I’d say it’s necessary to get through life.

OMG, I've never received so many marriage proposals in one day, or even ever! I mean I've had proposals, but not always ones I'd entertain

Anyway, moving on from my murky past Yes! hands up I'm a distrustful cynic particularly relating to institutions, religious bodies, politics and governments, it's a long list. That trust was embedded a long time ago, when the lid was blown off the catholic church's shenanigans, brought up to believe that this massive hierarchy was a force for good and then discovering it encompassed all manner of evil behind that facade and something else I took from being raised a catholic, never under estimate the power of the patriarchy, in their many guises. I kind of just don't take anything much at face value. There's always an agenda just look at the The UN, WHO, Charities such as Help The Children, Oxfam, The fecking WEF, the list goes on, sinister, shadowy, murky, kickbacks, in the pockets of God know who, to me nothing is ever as transparent as it may seem. in a world full of lobbyists with vested interests. Yeah! so pretty much posters like Galaxy and Oreo, "you are my people" but that doesn't mean I don't listen to the points of view expressed by others. . No one has ever nailed the argument for the rights of natal women better than Doodledog, no one presents the background of the girl grooming horrors with more compassion and understanding than Iam.

Going back to the OP though, the assumption made by her, along the lines of "most of the electorate have the understanding of a 9 year old". With what was almost likely to have been an American pov, presumably because "they" the lumpen ones didn't vote Democrat. A rationale that is born out universally in the western world by those who no longer see the left wing as their saviours and all of the evils of the world are encompassed in the so called far right. Far right of course extends to anybody slightly right of centre, so if you are a critic of the way the whole "grooming" debacle was handled, or you feel that justice wasn't really served in that connection, or you are a critic of the way this government has handled pretty much anything, now by extension those become members of the "far right"

Going back to the US, and her supposition that the Christian Far Right hold the sway in some states I don't doubt that, but where's the balance, perhaps the OP has never read Demon Copperhead or watched the excellent "Dopesick" So lets just wonder why swathes of that demographic were to be labelled as "The basket of deplorables" by the magnanimous Hillary Clinton, those who couldn't bring themselves to vote for her and voted instead for Trump. Maybe they were the West Virginians targeted in poor mining areas where minor injuries by nature of their work were prevalent. Into there lives came Purdue Pharmaceuticals who pushed their highly addictive prescriptions for Oxycontin which lead to tens of thousands of premature deaths, hundreds of thousands of addicts, lives ruined in the poorest of communities. The company was
found guilty of misleading the public about the dangers of the drug, no one was really held to account.

We have something similar over here just mention the word "Brexit" and we have an almost automaton response "too thick not to realise what was written on the side of the bus were lies" that's the narrative, by the way did anyone read Petra's thoughts on the matter up thread. I did vote remain, with reservations. I think the way free movement was rolled out here like a Tsunami impacted on communities who had to absorb a disproportionate amount of people into their towns almost overnight and that put immense strain on their infrastructure, why wasn't it phased in gradually as it was in France and Germany for example? ffs! did the government really believe only 13,000 would come, where did they pluck that figure out of the air from anyway. Blair I believe has said "with hindsight we'd have done it differently" we don't need hindsight from our politicians we need foresight and a bit of honesty wouldn't go amiss either. Of course it was good for industry, back unanimously by the CBI and whilst I don't doubt we need immigration in some areas and I don't underestimate those benefits, particularly in the NHS, At the same time though it has to be balanced, some saw their livelihoods shrivel, wages stagnated because of an over supply of labour, read the Grapes of Wrath to see the ruinous effects of too many vying for the same work, eventually what they earned was reduced to subsistence levels, extreme circumstances nearly a 100 years ago, but we don't always learn from history. An oversupply of workers is a mandate for companies to underpay their workforce. Salaries in many corporations are still lower than they should be, coupled with umpteen more people arriving here, concentrated in certain areas, where the shortage of housing is now critical. As Petra commented up- thread people often voted as to how they were personally affected. I don't suppose for one moment there is going to be much of a meeting of minds between those who weathered the full force of the impact of overnight immigration in say Boston, Lincs and Richmond on Thames near where I lived for nearly 4 decades, where they resoundly voted to remain, an enclave of haves if ever there was one.

Honestly, I think the propensity to label great swathes of the population as thick or having a stunted mentality has become the new class war, it probably never went away. It's a tacit "I'm educated and can see the bigger picture, You can't because you're not only under educated but have the mentality of a 9 year old, you shouldn't really have the vote, even if I do believe in a more equal world, just as long as it's my vision of what that world should be"

Another round of applause Terribull. Are you after even more marriage proposals?

Not really 25Avalon, I have no time for that right now, I've just calmed down my distraught grandson, bankrupt at the tender age of 10, well that's the world of Monoply for you. His opponent, my son tells me in his day, friends of his had the game banned in their house 'cos the board went flying and siblings got punched I am returning to the safe and relatively calm haven of GN where peace and goodwill is in abundance

I agree again Terribull ( by the way just as an aside with regard to excitement about the proposals, you havent actually seen us).
It is about class, the main problem for me is that the labour party has become the party of the middle class, and their concerns are very different to many other people. I work in a Northen 'red wall' town, my base is in one of the most deprived areas, their experience of immigration is completely different to my little middle class villages experience.
Mix this with identity politics ( and never any mention of class in there) and it is a disaster.

David49

The people I know who voted leave were across the social profile but right leaning, their logic was migration/xenophobia and sovereignty.
They did not consider the practical or economic consequences, of leaving.

They did not consider the practical or economic consequences, of leaving.

I don't think that's quite true.

Prior to the Referendum, I was quite active across social media sites and debated with those who had quite clearly considered the economic impact.

As a Remain voter myself, I cyber-chatted to a Leave voter who ran a small business and who took the long-term, Jacob Rees-Mogg, view of the benefits (and drawbacks) of Brexit. In fact, we became 'Facebook Friends' (we had other interests in common) and had quite a few civilised discussions on the whole subject of our membership of the EU.

What I did notice was that those who were open to debate worth listening to - either Leave or Remain - were those who were not fanatics.

My 'Facebook friend' was not totally opposed to our being in the EU, in the same way that I could recognise its failings.

... in stark contrast to the (too many) posters who either used derogatory language to insult Leave voters (Brexshitters, thickos, etc), or the Leave voters who referred to Remainers as Remoaners, Losers, Traitors, etc.

I have no respect for such people, whichever side they were on, and no-one will convince me that I should listen to what they have to say.

My basic (simplistic) feeling is that when you join a club, within it, you lose some of your autonomy, otherwise it's a free-for-all and not a club

But if enough club members believe that some of the rules are disadvantageous, there's no reason not to question them.

But leaving the club altogether maybe isn't the best solution.

That was my position.

The tactics of the Leave campaign are another, separate, matter. As were the weaknesses of the Remain side.

Excuse me! Labour is the Party of middle-class intellectuals not particularly the middle-class business or commercial wallahs!

No Boz I've been a member for over 30 years and in my Northern constituency there is a real mix. How long have you been a member to know?